Argument: Maps should be taken more seriously rather than being just for 'fun'. By that, I mean you should expect to have to endure some time during development where you'll get little or no personal gratification, but rather have to suck it up and withstand potential tedium, writer's/trigger's/terrainer's blocks, and all manner of assorted obstacles (including the knowledge that your map may, potentially, fail). That's the only way to ensure you have the right attitude for finishing maps.


They're mutually exclusive because for any non-trivial maps (ones that are not simply about taking a version that's already floating around and changing a marine's HP from 40 to 75), if a map maker is expecting their map making in and of itself to be 'fun', they'll almost invariably be let down. Triggers are a pain in the arse sometimes. Terraining can take a while sometimes. Balance issues and other junk can become tedious. All of these factor into inevitably making maps 'not fun' when the maker realizes what they have to do to actually complete them.

That's why I think people have the wrong attitude in general. It sucks, but it's something I think a lot of you need to come to terms with.

www.mapmakingisseriousbusiness.com

In all seriousness, I think mapmaking should be fun, especially testing with friends and all. It's just a drag when you come to the serious aspects of it, the hard part, triggers.

I'd have to agree with that. Especially when you're trying to debug something, like that one trigger out of like 1000 in the map thats causing lag (still looking for it, i've spent hours). You have to be able to enjoy mapping, if only in the gratification you get by achieving something new or creating something enjoyable; but tux is right, to get everything to work, you can't be carefree about it the whole time.

Unless you're able to actually enjoy that particular form of mind-numbing tedium that is triggering or terraining...

If you are you're a new breed of Masochist and I want your number.


Yeah it's a conundrum alright. To make maps to have fun with you have to realize you may not get to have much fun yourself. The return could be worth it, though, in the long term. IF your map turns out good, that is.

I can see why so few people actually finish their maps nowadays.

Why are such things the "right" and "wrong" attitude.

People have their own reasons for making maps.

Mine is personally the satisfaction of when people say they want to remake for the fifth time.

Individual reasons ultimately boil down to whether the map "does it for them" or not. And my issue is that I think people should do their maps more often with the understanding that it may not necessarily "do anything for them" for a good long while they're making it. If ever, even. They should be realistic and accept that they may, in fact, fail to make a good map. Especially on their first few tries.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 28 2008, 1:59 am by Tuxedo-Templar.

There's a difference between enjoying something and having a reason for doing something. If you're in the middle of a project and suddenly realize you don't care whether it's finished or not, and that it no longer has any significance to your life, and you're done with this whole starcraft thing, then maybe you should pitch it.

The problem is that people hype up their maps beforehand -- to get kudos, as tux said in the other thread.

Then, after they chuck their project, many of them remember they actually DO like mapmaking, miss the enjoyment it brings, and come up with a new idea, and hype it up again. And the whole process repeats. They get a high from the "mapmaker" identity.

So. Yes. At times, there's no enjoyment whatsoever, when the only motivation to pull through is based on your reasons for finishing, like artistic expression. Self-expression. There's some idea you want to get out there, make it real. Your original conception, your original goal or reason for making the map. The really dreary stuff may not feel like self expression at all... the trick is to remember, see it in the right light. You can make it MEANINGFUL even if it's not FUN. If a map holds no meaning for you whatsoever, maybe it's not worth finishing.

Here's a good test for determining whether a map idea is worth finishing: Can you work on it without blabbing about it? Or do you HAVE to let the world know, NOW? I notice -- and I bet this is true for a lot of people -- that I immediately lose my OWN interest in a project after telling someone about it. Once I tell someone about it, I get a taste of the kudos I expect to get when I finish the map, and my thirst for kudos drowns out my private, idea-based motivations. And I've found that wanting kudos is one of the worst motivators, ever. Even if you can continue to make the map, you start to think about what will get you MORE kudos, instead of what will make a better map.

That said, I've had other reasons for not being able to finish maps.

If a map holds no meaning to you then that's just another reason to rethink why to bother even starting on it in the first place. I say maps ought to be started only if the maker knows it's a worthwhile idea (not a simple "let's try this because I can't think of anything else") and they're aware it's gonna start to suck about 30% of the way into development ("omg the triggers are too hard I quit").

Mastering those obstacles mentally before you begin your map can nearly guarantee you'll finish it. In other words, you have to be confident on your idea and extremely patient with implementing. Having a lot of experience helps, too, but is no substitute.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 28 2008, 12:29 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.

If there is no fun in map making - Map fails.

I have fun testing and re-editing the map, don't ask why. I love hearing feedback, whether its good or bad, just not super negative feedback because thats pretty devilesk of them to be that way. And we all know how much people like him.

The trial and error keeps me entertained.

OMG, lol I totally understand that! My own map is lagging like hell, but I don't understand what's happening. I tried just about everything short of tearing down all 1000+ triggers and re-triggering from scratch, and I kinda don't wanna look at the map right now. Definitely in one of those 'not fun' periods for me.


You know what? Quoted for truth. And I think this doesn't just go for SC mapmaking, but anything you set out to do in life. Just because you're passionate about it, doesn't mean that you will enjoy it every step of the way.


Wow, I was just about ready to post a map info. Better not fall into that trap, hold back a bit and settle that lag issue before anything else eh?

Sorry Tux, but I think you are a bit too serious with your mapping, SC mapping is a hobby, after all.

Well, I probably have the exact opposite stance on this subject.
If a map is not fun to make, it is not worth making.
But what makes mapping fun?
For me it's always been coming up with something new in a map, a system of triggers, a blend, an idea nobody has thought of. I don't really care whether or not my maps are fun to play, so long as my kernel ideas are shown to their full potential.
The reason I stop many of my maps is because the problems I encounter in implementing ideas have already been solved for, either by others or by me. This is when map making becomes no fun, and this is when I decide that the map is not worth making and should find a new idea.

Its like baking a cake, the ultimate product is whats meant to be enjoyed, but the process itself can be the real fun.

lol note to self
Tux: Mapping is like onions, they both have layers
Rantent: Cakes have layers
Tux: Mapping is not like cakes

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 29 2008, 7:32 pm by Rantent.

It is true that many people aren't finishing their maps whether it be because of lack of motivation or patience, thus this leads to the inevitable frustration where we don't see many maps completed. But the thing is, what can you do about it? Mapping is a hobby afterall but in the end we, as starcraft players, want new maps to play on. We don't want to play some of the shit we see on battle.net; we want quality maps from quality map makers. This whole issue is more like a mutual agreement; "I make a map, you make a map, we all have fun." It's like we're all members of an isolated village somewhere in the mountains; in order for us to survive, we all have to do something.

I have to agree with Falkoner.

Ah! So we get to the key issue at last! Took long enough.

No thanks to devilesk, of course.



Therein is the dilemma I'm trying to address: Clearly, to finish maps, you have to acknowledge their 'not fun' aspect and find a way to push through it. Or in other words, you're really gonna need a specific reason as your source of motivation; not just wishy-washy "for fun". Which means that, inevitably, most maps end up being abandoned because the author's "for fun" conditions stop being fulfilled about half way into the map.

However, now we get to the heart of the matter: SHOULD we even do that? I mean, now that it's clear what needs to be done to finish a real map (not just your standard bnet junk, I mean to say), here's the problem then:

• Bnet doesn't care about them 80% of the time.
  
• Blizzard doesn't care about them 100% of the time.
  
• The UMS community isn't what it used to be.
  
• SC is over a decade old; it's game engine is outdated many times over (for the purposes of map making, I mean; gameplay is still viable, of course).
  
• We get to put up with people like devilesk still around for no real reason.
  

So... is it worth making decent maps at all, really? Again, it's clear we have to find a consistent way to take them seriously to get them finished. But what intrinsic reason is there to take them seriously?

That's the question I'm pondering.




For me, with AG, I think of it as something I want to have that can actually be played. My logic is that if I can do that correctly even once, then I'll be able to duplicate it, and thus have learned the key to successful gameplay. That's in part my goal for later: So I have an acute idea on how to make real games. I do in fact intend to make an actual game. But not before I'm certain I have a good idea as to how.

My situation is the exception here, though. For the purposes of a "for fun" hobby, I've begun to see that there's almost no reason to take maps seriously, really. And thus, knowing that it then becomes highly unlikely to expect reliable map completion, there's almost no reason to even bother. Except perhaps with trivial maps (which are the only ones bnet ever seems to recognize, anyway).



Discuss.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 29 2008, 10:13 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.

Mapping is a hobby indeed, but say you want to play a new map. Battle.net has nothing new or good to offer, you've already played past maps made by previous map makers, and now you want something new to play with friends. Of course there's still people somewhere out there who are pumping maps out, but they turn out to be those typical, boring, repetitve b.net maps. We want maps made by people like you and me, maps that we know will be made with some degree of quality, and more importantly, maps that we will expect to see something new/creative/original as well. We are a starcraft map making site afterall, this is a haven in which we should all be getting together and discussing maps/mpds and idea, not a haven where we debate about anything having to do with religion (there are far better places to do such petty things).

Mapping is not like homework assignments where a third party enforces us to complete one whether it be against or own will or not. However, it should be where you, personally, should realize that to keep the sc community alive and fun that you are the missing link; your possibly unawakened mapping skills and talents must shed its light. You are not necessarily obligated to make a map, it is somewhere where in the end you want to make one for the good of Starcraftkind.

Just because something is not fun, doesn't mean you can't like it. People don't know what they like, or for that matter, what is fun. This is the same reason some people can be bastards and still have friends. We don't always like pats on the back; sometimes its better to get a slap in the face. (But of course none of us admit this openly, for fear of the result. )
This all depends on what else you would rather be doing. Some parts of mapping are certainly not as fun as playing the game, but often times I found my self preferring to map rather than play. If you can think of something you'd rather be doing, than by all means do it.