So I've finally had the chance to play this game more, and I have to say that this game is pretty good.
But of course, it needs polish, like any other games.

First of all is the UI for picking the class. It's okay, but it's so zoomed in and awkward that it annoys me. It's like the waiter is holding the menu in my face so I can only see one selection at a time. I heard you were going to make it better, so please do .

Second of all, I think that, for MANY maps, the effects aren't as noticible as I'd like them to be. For example, The X and O's are hard to see, especially under that thing that shoots balls... I think it's called the Infiltrator.
Also, a lot of the engineer's things, and things that fly about and shit aren't very noticible until they hit you. I think that's okay for certain classes, like the Sniper and maybe the Prowler, but for classes like the Tank and Commando, you want their effects to be EXPLOSIVE. Not only is it more fun and entertaining that way, but people will more easily learn what's going on and learn to play the game.

The Snipers' are OP. There's no denying it. A better way would be to make it so that it is most effective at a certain range. It should not one hit kill at a very far range, or should it one hit kill at a very close range. Snipers have always been a straightforward class. It'd benefit you if you added something that could spice it up. I don't know what.. but that's just my feeling.

Why's there no chainsaw? There's got to be a class that has a chainsaw. And a suicide bomber.
Here, how about this class


Finally.. my favorite class for now is the prowler because of its speed. But its "Slicing death" or smth need the "Charge" effect of the zealot. Another thing is that it's "prowl ability" (cloaking) should automatically be canceled when I click other spells. This way, you won't force players into going through all the confusing buttons.

But the BIGGEST problem is the transition between "E+W" for the prowler. It ALWAYS seem that the prowler will run out of energy before he can use his W spell.
I think a better design would be to make E cost energy, AND have a cooldown, AND be a set time, rather than a channeled spell like it is now. This way, you won't frustrate players.

Now.. last suggestion I have, really, is that the name sucks.
Fortress Arena Classic? Where's the Fortress? Why is it "classic" ? Has there already been so many versions that this one needs to be denoted as the Original, "classic" ver? Why "arena"?? That's so cliche.
Please change the name. Hugs vs Kisses didn't work because it confused players as to what it may be. but Fortress Arena Classic is just bland, boring and uncreative.

I'll continue to think of better names for you... but FAC is mediocre at best.

Keep it up. This game is really good already. =D . It just lacks polish.
It is also through your game that I've realized that the Minimap in SC2 sux much more than SC1 (much harder to discern units from the terrain)

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Oct 31 2010, 5:05 pm by UnholyUrine.

This pretty much sums up every discussion Jay and I had about the mod for the first three weeks we were working on it.

I still can't believe everyone else hates Hugs vs. Kisses so much. Starcraft players are too srs, imo.

We do intend to add the charge animation to the Prowler's dash, but it's just one more thing on the list at the moment. You're the second person to suggest that we have the prowlers moves automatically cancel stealth. I'll talk to Jay about that.

I still don't think we need to nerf the Sniper any more than we already have. They seem like they're unstoppable, but they don't actually perform as well as many other classes; plus, the Engineer remains a hard counter. One thing I am considering is a Halo-style smoke trail following sniper rounds, which should make them easier to locate.

The Xs and Os will be coupled with team colors the moment that Blizzard fixes their player color switching mechanic. I originally used colored lights as a stop-gap, but lights don't show up for players with lower settings; we don't watch there to be a technology advantage.

On a final note, the class selector is a lot simpler if you notice that the rows are arranged by weight class: heavies are on top, mediums in the middle, and lights are at the bottom. I'd like to add some indication of this, but I'm afraid of overwhelming new players with information. Thirty seconds is not a lot of time to digest what's there as it is, and we're going to be adding game-type and arena selection interfaces to boot. With this much being thrown at new players within the first few seconds, I'm trying to cover as much as I can with simple, bold visuals (hence the one-unit close-ups).

- Little Asi

@Smoke-Trail idea for Sniper - Not a bad idea. Might be just the thing to keep things even.

@X n O's - Damn blizzard..

@Class selection - Information is seldom overwhelming as long as it is presented well. The way that it is presented now seem overwhelming because, for any newbies, it'd be impossible to note how many classes there are in the first place, leaving the player to guess. That means that it can be an infinite number, or at least a very high number, making it feel overwhelming.

Instead, if you have a panel (like in Photon Command/SOTIS/ZHRPG) that shows all classes, but mousing over = more information.. that would be better

Another thing is to think wisely about what info to put on.
At this point, I'd suggest only putting the spells/attacks and stats. As long as it's organized neatly and in a good pattern, it'd be easy for players to compare.

@No boogieman comment - No boggieman comment?

From a simplicity stand point you should defiantly think about color coding so you know who kills who better

I think this was there in older versions.
However, since I don't really care as of WHO killed WHO, I'd prefer the same Who/Who, but with colors corresponding to Ally or Enemy, instead of player color.

@UnholyUrine
LOL @ the Boogieman idea... I'm working on alec's class idea first right now... I'll see what I can do to make a Boogieman, but I think I'm lacking a chainsaw model. Here are some of the upcoming changes, taking into account suggestions on balance and my own experience with games:

- mode and arena selection in-game
- lots of HP/movespeed balances
- prowler can now use slicing dash out of ambush, cursor for slicing dash range
- range cursors for assassin blink/charge
- scout hp lowered, burst grenade reworked
- pdd no longer kills grenades
- commando viking can be killed, 1 more shot on rifle, rifle has lower cd, no cd on powershot (still 75 energy)
- grenadier F skill, turn-rate increased, pipebombs have longer cd, bane grenades have lower cd, flashbangs have 0 cd
- enforcer grenade travels faster, god's strength duration increased, movespeed increased
- sniper deagle reworked, longer cd / reload times for sniper rifle, slower movespeed, less hp
- infiltrator volatile slime reworked, fixed lack of hp regen above ground, acid rocket dmg increased, faster movespeed

- Jay

You guys are buffing the Enforcer?! O.O
I believe he was already pretty OP, though I admit I haven't really played it. Mostly played against it.

The red/green combination you're remembering was from one of the test versions. It looked like someone killed Christmas.

The messages are actually color coded now, though; it's just a lot more subtle. Positive messages are in white text while negative messages are gray.

- Little Asi

Because of the influx of suggestions for a name change, we were hoping you guys, the SEN community, can help us come up with a better name.
SUGGEST NAOOo

- Jay

Game name is a more sensitive topic... It really should reflect what YOU want the players to perceive before diving into the game.... So, it's really best up to you.

But for the time being.. here's a quick list of possible names... top = personally i think is best for how I perceive your map

• Team Fortress SC [guaranteed popularity... tho you'd sell your soul to the devil]
  
• Alpha Squadron(s) (Arena)
  
• Delta Squadron(s) (Arena)
  
• (insert greek letter here) Raiders (Arena)
  
• CTF (insert random cliche noun-that-sounds-tough here) [e.g. barrens, mission, commando, fortress, borderlands, dustford , adaptation, killzone, apocalypse, grandma ]
  
• League(s) of War
  
• Guild(s) of War
  
• BattleGuild (Arena)
  
• BattleLeague(s) (Arena)
  
• WarBreak (Arena)
  
• WarEnders Arena
  

bleh... or you can do a play-on words... if you can.

---

On another note..
I wanted to point out that the actual arena maps... like the bel'shir, and etc... except for Redstone.. can have more stuff going on..

like maybe more destructible things.. or more strategic things that can be used

Also.. why make the arenas strictly symmetrical? If, let's say.. bases are left and right.. you can make top differ from bottom. Temple Siege was never symmetrical... (tho it was never truly balanced either.. )

We've decided on the new name:

change it to Metal and Fire and u got a good name.

right nowit's as confusing as it was with Hugs vs Kisses
\

I'm very happy with what we've got this time around. It has the curb appeal that the fail popularity system demands, but it's still unique in form.

I'm not sure why you say it's confusing. It succinctly communicates the wide variety of combat styles and locales available.

- Little Asi

Oh by the way, one thing you should definitely work with is Lighting.

Well, it's your call.

It's confusing for someone who has never played the game before. They will not immediately know what sort of map this is, albiet it being quite obvious. The name communicates in a tongue-in-cheek manner, and only a portion of pubbies would appreciate it. Moreover, "Bile" and "tooth" doesn't even fit the type of game your map is. If you have ever really sat down and think about the curb appeal that is required to get pubbies to join your game, you'd know that four different nouns that have no similarities or patterns in one title will just steer them away.

On the other hand "Metal and Fire" is a great name. It instantly sends the message that it's going to be about Guns and PvP, which is mainly what your map is about. It also has great appeal and makes the player interested to see what the map is like.

hmm Metal Bile and Fire Teeth. ... Metal Teeth and Fire Bile...

Gonna have to go with EvilPiss on this one.

Jay and I have, in fact, sat down and considered what sort of names attract people; indeed, we've gone over this more than any one other aspect of the game.

You're making some assumptions about our goals here that aren't true:

1. We're not attempting to instantly send a message that describes the game in a very literal and direct way; that's what the Category, Mode, and Description are for. This name sets a tone of variety and aggression, and it does so in a distinctive form that you aren't likely to confuse with something else.

If our only intention is to communicate that the game is about Guns and PvP, why stop at Metal and Fire? We could just go with Guns and PvP.

Speaking of which, there are many ways to die in this game; we're not limited to guns. There are also bile, teeth, and fire, to name a few.

You can have people shooting each other in space, sure, but you can also have two dogs ripping each other apart in a dense jungle or a giant insectoid spitting acid at a cyborg in an active volcano. "Guns and PvP" is selling us short.

2. Attracting players is one goal, but it is not the only goal. We do want people to play the game, but we're not willing to let the distribution mechanism (i.e. popularity uber alles) define our image. As I've mentioned, it's very important that the title be distinctive.

To be fair to Jay, I should clarify that this particular concern is mostly mine. He doesn't give a damn.

If our only goal was attracting players, we'd just do what 90% of successful maps do: infringe someone's copyright or rip off a popular title from War3/SC1.

The bottom line is that this represents a balance of several conflicting needs, so if you look at it with just one particular goal in mind, it's not going to look perfect.

- Little Asi

The one major goal that I see with game name should be getting people's attention
Such as in the "AIDA process" taught in...probably most marketing class, explained here: http://www.staredit.net/topic/10262/
The first thing in trying to produce any advertisement or marketing, which, in this case, would mostly be the game name (and, of course posting on forums)

Soo, addressing this:
True, very true, but the most important goal should be attracting players. It should come above all else if you wish ur map to be popular.

But, again. it's your call. And I've always said that maps shouldn't be created only to be popular.

...
Annnd, again.. the popularity system of B.net 2 would probably fuck up any chance of the AIDA process being useful... :\
Srsly.. why is "Unit Test" still on like the 2nd or third page? What the fuck...? Why are the featured maps STILL UP THERE? What the fuck?! Why do Tower Defense and Tug of War need to be categorized differently.. Why in the ass aren't RPG's categorized then? Why the FUCK?!?!?! ugh

Hum, I was about to forget yet another thing that kind of suck in your map: the hero selection. It's too long to go from one point to another, and the terrain there isn't very pleasing to the eye. I'd suggest making the terrain a bit better, and setting a row of button with the portrait of the units on the left of the screen so that players can quickly switch to the exact unit they want with a single click.

P.S. And don't forget about Lighting!

I hear you on the class selector needing a summary, though I would probably just have an option to zoom out and make all of the classes visible at once (you'd click one to zoom in and get the details).

I'm not sure what specifically you have in mind for the lighting, though. Each arena has unique lighting; in fact, Bel'Shir has two possible settings and Temple has three (with water to match). Redstone's lighting changes with the lava.

The daytime Temple lighting is actually heavily customized, since none of the preset lighting modes fit with my intentions.

- Little Asi