Well if you are looking into doing that, I recommend the idea that was to be added into EPIC (Empires Plunged into Conflict) by Tol and his team, Kitchensoft, for SC2 before the project was shut down. The idea was that instead of items, you bought "Enhancements" for your character. The reason the general item idea was left in, was to prevent people from stacking into a single stat then claiming imbalance from either sucking and letting someone rape them with one stat filled or something doing that, then sucking. These enhancements altered their abilities as well as their stats, just having uniqueness to the character and fitting to their lore.

Personally, I would stick with some kind of item base. It keeps the game balanced and leaves strategy. My reasoning, is that there is a limit to how much you can upgrade and in what direction. Allowing the purchase of direct stats, would cause issues in people creating a glass cannon and destroying some opponents of lesser skill.

Some ideas that have floated around before: Limitation and Mastery spell system: You can level your spells however you want, but you can 'specialize' in one, giving it an altered effect than it would normally have.

Either/Or abilities, you can choose a skill, but then you cannot have the other. This was intended as a hero type in E.P.I.C. and had a lot of interesting concepts behind it.

If you would still like to pursue the tree option, you could. Though if you did, I would definitely recommend that you can only level up when you go to heal then so that newer players wouldn't want to upgrade in the middle of a fight and lose horribly. That, or have it so you set up how you want to build your hero before you start playing or something.

In the end, personally, items only exist to limit somebody from say leveling up straight hp and unable to die or the alternative, somebody leveling straight attack and killing everything without trouble. Items make this only possible in leaps and bounds, not a linear rate, as well as the fact that you have a limitation to how many times you can get the same upgrade before you have to pay an excessive amount for the next. Kind of get where I am coming from?

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Something I just thought of when I saw the terrain picture, you aren't seriously sticking with the 3 cannons/pylon/capture point... Are you? Why not make it all one building, just when you destroy it, the building goes into a 'neutral' state until it is uncontested and captured? Just sayin'.

The enhancements idea sounds pretty good. I'm against items which give +x attack, or +y hp etc., becayse as you said, players just work until they get those items and then win the game. Late game carries are all very well but having +200 attack through items, for example, would be OP, and having only a couple item slots would defeat the purpose of items.

Specialization in a spell making it have a different effect brings us back to having too many spells to make per hero. Data editing is the team's weak point at the moment, and quadrupling the amount of data editing work would be a bad idea right now.

I'm actually really liking enhancements which are generally hero specific. This makes the data editing job not much more difficult, and adds to hero customizability a lot.

I like the three cannons and pylon thing D: it's one of the things that sets ts apart.

It's also nice so you don't give a gun/bow to a melee character. Was always just overlooked, but still, what the fuck. If you don't like the idea of a carry just buying huge items with their farm, make it so that every item is part of another item so you can work towards a bigger item eventually anyway.

So does the idea of a capture-able point.

Ahli, make them put me on the idea team!

I think you have a lot of sway, considering you're the one doing everything.

I actually think this is a good idea. CAFG did some great work, not long all these guys who are fresh to the mapping world. In our eyes anyway.

Sorry bud, not going to happen. We have more than enough ideas, we just need one good dedicated data editor and we'll be fine.

Kick em and take CAFG. Easy.

But on a more serious note, if I do the data editing, can I kick you off your throne? Just curious.

Purty much. Well, you can do the data stuff how you like, as long as CAFG doesn't get involved and whatever you do isn't so far from ts that I hate it. But I still get the throne ;0

What does UU think of this?

UU's disappeared so I took over so that something actually gets done.

Are you mad because I said this wasn't going anywhere from the start of the thread unless someone like Ahli got involved to do all the actual work?

I'll be the first to admit how useless 'idea' guys are, but if you're going to have them, you might as well have good ones. Me and Lovel both have good track records. You haven't even been able to complete a single map, and only attempted a handful.

Not to mention you've had almost nothing to do with anything TS in the past other than occasionally playing it.

Step down and let my experience make this a true Temple Siege 2.

I'm not mad, I've just seen how you act and behave and I don't want you on the team due to your behaviour.

I have completed one map. I didn't release it but it's complete. I've attempted well over 30 maps, some simple, most complex.

At one stage for well over a year I played TS at a relatively high level. I also helped with 1.5 and above. And as for ideas guys, we have flashbeer already for ideas, me for being realistic, and I bounce ideas off a few other people to make sure we're not going too crazy with what we attempt. All we need is a data editor to make heroes, and if someone like LoveL will do it then I'd be happy to let him have more input on hero design.

Worst received, least hosted ts map ever. CHAOS was hosted more than it!

I had no idea you would take people making fun of your religious fundamentalism in SD into SC related things. And don't act like it's something else, I'd hate everyone too if I got beat up there by everyone else half as much as you do. I've never even bothered speaking to you else where.



The point is, I manage things well. I make things happen, and I actually have something to do with temple siege (the versions people actually played).

The thing is, whether you like to admit it or not, you struck gold getting Ahli to agree to do ANYTHING with you. I've played his maps and I know he's the key ingredient to getting this map done. You've literally been in "pre-brain storming" for almost a year. If this goes anywhere, it won't succeed because of you, it'll succeed in spite of you.

I think that's a bit unfair to Jack. UU seemed like he was doing literally nothing (and considering how much he hates SC2, I can see why), while at least Jack is out trying to get people to work on the map. The "pre brainstorming for a year" concept should probably be attributed to UU more than Jack.

but I don't think that I really completed anything besides my defense maps...

I can work pretty good, if stuff is planned out. Reminds me on Sons of War... already planned mission in detail -> map is done within a few days... nothing really planned/decided -> takes forever to make...

Jack actually tells me what I can do and he tells me stuff that I can't find anywhere in the whole discussion I can access.

The main prolem with all discussions during the past year is that there was no real result made... no planning milestones, no artifacts like a list with 15 heroes and their spells with stats... You could argue that that stuff is the original temple siege, but since I'm not really into it, I would like to see a list with heroes and spells (with stats)...

The whole map hasn't been planned out, yet.
So since nothing is decided we can implement the original temple siege with some changes into SC2 and use that as a base...

But since I didn't really play temple siege since 1.3m3 or something like that, I don't know much about it. So I need references for my work like the warpgate spawns for each tier.

Another problem right now is.... where the heck are the guys that planned this during last year?
Atm this looks like Jack and me right now... does anyone know anything about them? Did everyone pass away or are they busy with military service or what are they doing?

Just redesign it. Direct ports are just fail in themselves, reinvent the game with the tools you have at hand. The best thing TS had was the lives system, that's about it.

k.
I wasn't talking about SD. I can't even remember arguing with you in SD, if we ever did.

uhh, you took UU's map, with moose's edits, andfixed a few bugs and made a few balance changes. Whoopdeedoo.

Ahli will be good for getting a few complex trigger systems I have planned done, and he's already got a basic playable map framework triggered, but even with him we still need a data editor. I'm considering posting a list of heroes with the spells neede to be made and have the community make them, but that has pros and cons. And imago.deo's done some great terrain work, and that's all we really need to have a map: terrain, triggers, and data. I never planned to take over this project but UU procrastinated for a year and whined about sc2 and then disappeared. I was only supposed to do some UI work, but I figure with UU gone I may as well add a bigger task to my small list: getting the map made.

No offense, but any respect I had for you died here. Fixing balances and bugs that exist, no matter their size, far outweigh content. Anytime.

If you don't realize that, I say poo to you.

Though that may be true, this argument doesn't promote CAFG as some sort of "idea man" for TS2. I presume that's where Jack is coming from when he made that comment.

Indeed. And right now we need content more than we need balancing. Can't balance what isn't there.