Staredit Network > Forums > SC2 Melee > Topic: (2) Derelict
(2) Derelict
Jun 27 2010, 6:49 am
By: Syphon  

Jun 27 2010, 6:49 am Syphon Post #1



Alright, so this is my first attempt ever at making a melee map.



I tried to let it be useful in as many unorthodox strategies I could think of - of note are the possibilities of using your first CC as a Planetary Fortress (It's on a double cliff and can attack units rushing in without worry of retaliation if they rush) or floating it to the close Gold Minerals due to the absurdly short distance, as the geysers can be used as blocks.



Highlighted, White is a Xel'Naga Tower, red a Destructible Rock, and yellow a curtain of Sight Blockers.



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Jun 27 2010, 7:45 am Syphon Post #2



Changed to have an actual path into the Mains.



http://www.mediafire.com/?z41awihfdwn



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Jun 27 2010, 12:53 pm Syphon Post #3



Bam, updated again

http://www.mediafire.com/?g3y22avdvgf



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Jun 27 2010, 2:42 pm ImagoDeo Post #4



Quote from Syphon
Changed to have an actual path into the Mains.



http://www.mediafire.com/?z41awihfdwn

Ok, um... this map is bad. Sorry.

Problem #1: Mains not big enough. This is especially bad for Terran and Protoss who need to build large numbers of production facilities.
Problem #2: Cap the tower in your base + all your scouting = done. This is bad.
Problem #3: Mineral formations block stuff. This is bad, except for Zerg early game. For them it's a plus.

End Result: Z > All. Zerg can keep an eye on their enemies all the freaking time, and they can literally wall off with an FE, and then they can move to counter anything their opponent may be doing because their FE will be hidden from the enemy tower and they can build tech there as opposed to the main. Mutas = instawin, mostly because of extremely short rush distance.

Terran might have some recourse - they could theoretically float to the nat and make it a main, but that is hardly ideal for a good economy and the zerg would have a bonus. Toss < all on this map.

Next time please think about these things more carefully...



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Jun 27 2010, 5:27 pm Centreri Post #5

Relatively ancient and inactive

I like the concept and the terrain is pretty, but I kind of have to agree with Imago. The tower in the base can see inside the other persons base making it kind of useless to build turrets or other anti-air on the edge and giving air strategies a big advantage, and the bases are waaaaay too small to be good for anything except Z. Also, is using two waters really necessary? It looks horrid on the minimap.



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Jun 28 2010, 2:30 am Dem0n Post #6

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

Yeah, best main positions are usually around the perimeter of the map, mostly in the corners. Right now, the main-to-main distance is way to short. Whoever gets air first wins.




Jun 28 2010, 4:59 am Syphon Post #7



You can't scout enemy tech with the Towers. Did either of you even open the map up? The furthest it can see is the minerals - All it's for is to be able to see incoming drops / air attacks. You can't even see the geysers.

The mains are rather small to encourage expansion rather than turtling, as the mains + nats are VERY easily defended. It also discourages rushing to air units to hop the short gap.



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Jun 28 2010, 7:12 am UnholyUrine Post #8



Quote
The mains are rather small to encourage expansion rather than turtling, as the mains + nats are VERY easily defended. It also discourages rushing to air units to hop the short gap.

Except this isn't really what SC was made to be.

I agree with all the points ImagoDeo made, but I will also add these
1. The Rush Distance is wayy too long. Compared to air distance, it is ridiculous. This makes rushing much less advantageous than making air units.
2. There're choke areas that are too tight. This makes Zerglings/Zealots/Melee units weak. It actually isn't that easy to defend if you're being rushed by marines, and all you have are zealots that can't do their job well due to the tightness.
3. A question would be whether you've played as a turtler before. If, let's say, I had a layer of bunker/spine crawlers/cannons along that L shaped ledge leading to my base, all melee units trying to fight in that area will be completely useless cause it's just so clogged up!
4. Brood Lord/Banshee/Void Ray + range Massacre!!
5. Proxy Reapers Possible. I can build a barrack, and land it at the side where rocks were used to block the path. All your base are belong to the Reaper-men. (OP due to the hugely comparable rush distance for all other units)
6. Strangely placed nats (minerals blocking) will make melee units cry.
7. Number 1, 4, and 5 are the same problems as my map too.. so you're not alone D:

What I do like is the beautiful texture terraining. I can finally see how textures can be a beautiful thing :D
I think the concept of pushing people to expo isn't all that of a bad idea. But this isn't the way to execute it.. I think if the main can't be well protected, but the expos can, then people will try to expo more. Or if the rush distance between mains are very short, but it is longer to expos, then I think it'll drive people to expo. However, will this be an imbalance in it of itself? I don't know.

EDIT: One more thing.. too many xel'naga towers.. ignoring the one in the freaking base.. if I just spread my workers out, there'd be no way I can miss a rush coming. I'm not too sure if this is a good thing.



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Jun 28 2010, 4:10 pm ImagoDeo Post #9



Quote from Syphon
You can't scout enemy tech with the Towers. Did either of you even open the map up? The furthest it can see is the minerals - All it's for is to be able to see incoming drops / air attacks. You can't even see the geysers.

The mains are rather small to encourage expansion rather than turtling, as the mains + nats are VERY easily defended. It also discourages rushing to air units to hop the short gap.

Ok, I opened up the map and checked myself how far the towers can see.

And as it turns out, seeing the minerals is generally enough, in fact. You can see approximately how many workers your opponent is going for, which is generally a huge disadvantage for Zerg - you also know instantly what your opponent is if he goes Random, which takes a lot of the fun out of that particular play style. Half of the main is within the range of the tower, so it'd be impossible to build any great amount of structures without your opponent knowing exactly what you're doing. Even if all he sees you building is supply depots, he's still going to know that you've got a large army on the way as opposed to a small one.

And, as UU pointed out, the mineral formations are extremely awkward for any race other than Zerg. They make it difficult for Terran to wall the nat, and they make it difficult for protoss to build enough production structures. Terran can build rax elsewhere, of course, but that kind of defeats the purpose of a wall off. Plus, a terran player could float a rax over to that little island on the side of the base vs. a zerg player and steamroll him with reaper proxy. I don't care that the zerg would see it coming - there's nothing he could do about it except maybe use a queen, but I don't think the queen's melee attack can reach down there. Soon as three or four reapers were out, bam, dead zerg.

Either that or the reaper proxy wouldn't kill the zerg, but would enable the terran to FE and get ahead, thus enabling him to go banshees and steamroll the zerg a few minutes later. All in all, this map has a lot of problems. Protoss comes out on the short end of most deals, zerg on some and terran on some.



None.

Jun 29 2010, 8:56 am Syphon Post #10



Quote from ImagoDeo
Quote from Syphon
You can't scout enemy tech with the Towers. Did either of you even open the map up? The furthest it can see is the minerals - All it's for is to be able to see incoming drops / air attacks. You can't even see the geysers.

The mains are rather small to encourage expansion rather than turtling, as the mains + nats are VERY easily defended. It also discourages rushing to air units to hop the short gap.

Ok, I opened up the map and checked myself how far the towers can see.

And as it turns out, seeing the minerals is generally enough, in fact. You can see approximately how many workers your opponent is going for, which is generally a huge disadvantage for Zerg - you also know instantly what your opponent is if he goes Random, which takes a lot of the fun out of that particular play style. Half of the main is within the range of the tower, so it'd be impossible to build any great amount of structures without your opponent knowing exactly what you're doing. Even if all he sees you building is supply depots, he's still going to know that you've got a large army on the way as opposed to a small one.

And, as UU pointed out, the mineral formations are extremely awkward for any race other than Zerg. They make it difficult for Terran to wall the nat, and they make it difficult for protoss to build enough production structures. Terran can build rax elsewhere, of course, but that kind of defeats the purpose of a wall off. Plus, a terran player could float a rax over to that little island on the side of the base vs. a zerg player and steamroll him with reaper proxy. I don't care that the zerg would see it coming - there's nothing he could do about it except maybe use a queen, but I don't think the queen's melee attack can reach down there. Soon as three or four reapers were out, bam, dead zerg.

Either that or the reaper proxy wouldn't kill the zerg, but would enable the terran to FE and get ahead, thus enabling him to go banshees and steamroll the zerg a few minutes later. All in all, this map has a lot of problems. Protoss comes out on the short end of most deals, zerg on some and terran on some.

I find your analysis very odd for a few reasons - Mainly, all the high level players I've showed it to thought it was unbalanced for Protoss/Terran, and Zerg got the short end in every aspect.

The watchtowers add nothing for Zerg, as an Overlord can hop across the acid in about 10 seconds, they just allow the other races to scout the low platform of their enemy as early as Zerg can.

You can't do a Reaper proxy at the lowered platform because it's down 2 cliff levels. Reapers can't jump up it. Even if they could, by the time a Barracks + Tech Lab got up there the Zerg would be way ahead in tech. Something I have noticed that Terran and Protoss AIs always do on it is proxy their first structures behind the gold curtains. This is odd.

Anyways, I've updated it again, taking into account what people have said.



http://www.mediafire.com/?0lznvo3mnm4

1) I've moved the minerals around and slightly expanded the nat to give more building room and make front-door wall offs a bit easier. Only tier 1 units can fit in the back door now due to the mineral changes.

2) I've added another ramp outside the front door to make that space harder to control.

3) Fixed terrain in a few other places, and added some doodads.

4) Moved the Watchtowers a bit to reveal less of the mains.

5) Removed one of the rocks at the backdoor so it's easier to breakdown.



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