I'm not arguing that they don't discuss it. Every single moderation I've discussed, the moderator brought it up. I'm arguing that because, in this particular case, Gigins net contribution to SEN was positive (that is, he did much more good than bad - and the only bad is apparently privately (without affecting anyone else) insulting a GM), his suspension is thus bad for SEN.

What's wrong with my logic here? It seems fairly straightforward. Despite all your discussions about the topic, your moderation action had direct negative consequences for SEN. Thus, the moderation was bad. And I definitely don't see why this couldn't have been solved by Merrel simply PMing Gigins and saying "I'm a GM, you cannot talk to me that way. You will be held accountable for any further insults, even via PM. The next such insult leads to a suspension". What, did Gigins throw a tantrum and spam the entire moderation team with hate mail or something?

I have a feeling he'd respond with an identical response if Merrell had sent that.

Gigins' suspension mainly had to deal with the amount of trouble he's caused overall. We took into account everything he's done recently and in the past. He was not solely suspended for saying what he did, that was just the trigger that led to a discussion about whether or not he should be suspended.

EDIT:
Since February alone, he's had 11 deleted posts and only 4 "Severity" given. It's not like we haven't been lenient with him.

Hey all, David here (owner/creator/awesomely powerful guy on Nibbits). I just wanted to clarify some things, and go over the general policy of Nibbits. Let me start with the Excalibur incident.

It happened (insert proper time) ago, and I honestly don't know (nor care) why. The situation eventually came to be that one of my moderators had deleted (improperly) some of Excalibur's maps. Once I was informed of the situation, I addressed it with the moderator, and reversed the actions that had taken place. Let's be clear here, that just the same as SEN's admins, we have the best interests in mind for our sites, so going above and beyond to say we don't isn't cool.

Now let's move on to what Nibbits is about. I originally started it as a simple search engine, with a pretty nifty spider. This spider would craw sites like SEN and find maps. It would then stick them in a Google-like solution allowing you to easily find whatever map you wanted, ignoring where it came from. When you then found the map, it would send you to that site's map URL. It was cool and all, but far too inferior.

Eventually, that grew into what we have now, our database. This also began by spidering several sites (though SEN, even though I used it as an example, was not one of them). These sites typically were the uncooperative/unfriendly ones of the bunch, such as Epicwar, Hiveworkshop, and Starcraft.org. Many will disagree with my decision to do this, but it was mine, and only mine. Anyways, that spider has not been active for nearly 2 years now. SENers and many other members across many communities have formed a subcommunity on Nibbits, where they have realized that they can gain a real audience for their map, and really show off what it can do.

Getting down to what we stand for is a simple one-liner. We believe that maps no matter their quality, author, or arrogant-copyright-reasons, should be made available easily to the general public. Battle.net does it, and so do we. The way we see it, is if you host your map on Battle.net, you have released it into the wild, and thus we are that wild. We try very hard to maintain the largest collection of maps for any of Blizzard's games, and I think we've done quite well. Going beyond that, we've implemented some pretty sweet systems to make it so we can truly tell you how popular a map is (even though, as always, thats a workin progress). This, again, is another reason some people dislike Nibbits. If you come to us telling us to remove your map because we're infringing on your copyrights we will most likely to tell you to go whine somewhere else. Very rarely (and only for good reasons) have we ever removed a map.

Moving on to the "cracks" which we host. Let's first correct this statement, as they're not "cracks" as per the standard definition. In fact, they're not even in true violating of Blizzard's terms of service. More to the point, Blizzard obviously isn't holding a case against people running the map editor test mode, or they would have DMCA'd sites like Nibbits long ago (trust me, they've shut down the entire SC2 emu scene already). Nibbits has a VERY clear stance on piracy (in this definition) and "cracks". They belong elsewhere. We are the official host for many of the amazing tools which have been developed to allow people building maps to get a jump start. That's how we see it, and that's how we hope many of you see it as well.

Anyways, in closing, I definitely love the community SEN has here, and there's no reason to be for or against Nibbits. It's not the end of the world that Nibbits exists. We have a very good relationship with SEN, and plan to keep it that way. We strive to be a one-stop destination for getting maps, and have truly achieved that goal with StarCraft and StarCraft 2 (we are the number one destination for both games). I really hope the community here can agree, that Nibbits serves only to benefit the community, and no one else. If you don't believe me, I'll send you a copy of how much I've paid out of pocket to keep the site going for the last few years

Edit: I would also like to point out, that Nibbits goes beyond just the maps section on the site. We have several sites under our belt in order to improve the reach of your maps http://www.quantcast.com/p-d7vqZL_CClrzU#subdomain

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Apr 20 2010, 8:26 pm by zeeg.

@zeeg
Azala not only didn't see a fault in what he'd done, he also didn't learn his lesson, because I am sure he'd just as soon do it again. Therefore, since he's learned nothing, and is still on your staff, I cannot be happy we affiliate with an admin who allows such conduct.

My second problem with affiliating with nibbits is that you will allow nearly anything with .scm/.scx on the end. Nibbits has no standards in the worst way possible. You allow people like BWMapGod, to comment on maps he obviously hasn't played (Check how many comments he's made. Really.), give improper melee advice on bad maps, and just allow low class borderline spam on any section of the site. I have no problem with him personally, but he gives bad mappers bad advice and creates a perpetual cycle of nonimprovement. Is that really something you're okay with your site facilitating? We wouldn't allow such things here, it goes against SEN's goals of furthering mapping, and affiliating with a site that not only does not share that goal, but works against it, is insane.

Until Nibbits can at least be somewhat respectable, even as a resource and database, nevermind a community, I will object to its affiliation with SEN.

@Excalibur, you would then also know that azala has been extremely unactive lately. I can assure you what happened wouldn't happen again (and dont presume to speak for other people, its fairly rude)

Regarding BWMapGod, he's been an amazing help with our database, and you'd be surprised the number lf maps hes both collected and played. We allow any and all maps on Nibbits, that will never change, and it shouldn't. Just because a map exists in our database, we dont say "this is awesome, go download it". On the other hand, if that map does exist, and for some reason you want to download it, we CAN say "this other map is more awesome, go download it".

Edit: I meant wouldn't

If you could answer this question please:

I'm not saying he's a bad person and I know he's very active and important to Nibbits. If he put a little more thought before he posts, (Or had any idea what he's talking about) I have no doubt he'd be quite an asset.

BWMapGod is a valuable member of the community, whether his comments are full "reviews" or not, or whether his advice is omniscient it doesn't change the fact. Even someone being wrong, is still valuable. I would welcome anyone of his type with open arms. He only improves things, and has a positive attitude. He's much better than the people who constantly roam the maps downrating them, and posting harsh unwarranted comments.

I do find it a bit amusing though that you're so against Nibbits, yet you link to your maps on it in your signature

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 20 2010, 8:30 pm by DeVouReR. Reason: Merged

As positive as his attitude and intentions may be that does not change the fact that he is being detrimental to the mappers who listen to him. By allowing this you are hurting your own userbase. If you truly believe that's okay, and allow any advice no matter how wrong it is, then I must say Nibbits is certainly not a name I want SEN associated with.

As for linking to Nibbits, indeed I do. My map, Diplomacy Empires was #1 for weeks. I had problems with what I observed during my time at Nibbits, which is why I haven't uploaded anything since.

However since our DLDB is now functional, I don't think I'll be requiring Nibbits' services for my maps download link.

So Excalibur, what you're saying, is that anyones opinion you don't agree with should be removed?

No, absolutely not. I am not always right, I am not the end-all of mapping, melee or otherwise. However BWMapGod has demonstrated he knows absolutely nothing about the fundamental basics of melee mapping. Since he is trying to advise other users without knowing anything himself, he is creating a cycle of bad advice for bad mappers creating bad maps.

Then those mappers who obviously know much more than him can correct him. His opinion is still perfectly valid and wanted. Who are you to say his advice is wrong?

I am an experience melee veteran. I took the time to study melee VODs, read articles at team liquid, and trade comments with some of the best mappers at Broodwarmaps.net, some of the best non-koreans the mapping community has to offer. SEN's own melee section is one I've taken many steps to try and improve, a mere scan of the pinned topics will show the effort I've put in. But its not just that I've made the topics, its what they contain. Its the knowledge I've gained and share with others, and the fact that this information is correct in creating a proper, balanced melee map is whats important.

There's a difference between being a contributor and being an asset to the site. Moose, Devourer, Doodan, JaFF, these names speak volumes here for all they've done. Not just because they've done something but because of the quality and care of their work. That is being an asset, merely contributing whatever thought pops into your head is not good enough, at least it isn't here.

I don't believe you can expect someone to try and keep up with him and correct everything he says. That is a gargantuan task and you cannot in any reasonable manner ask it of anyone. What I was asking is if you planned to say anything to him or anyone else who would perpetuate this cycle, and you have given me the answer I had hoped I wouldn't get: Nibbits will not only allow your bad maps, but encourages you not to improve.

You're putting words into my mouth now. We don't discourage improvement, its completely the opposite. I honestly can't recall BWMapGod making any length "this is how you should improve your map" comments, so maybe you can point out the ones (which must be very few) that he has. Beyond that, I read your Melee post, and the first thing you state is people should be "willful". Well, if you want to improve, then improve. If not, then people will criticize your map and down-vote it. It's that simple.

It's not my, nor yours, nor anyones job to force someone to be better than they are. It's also not as easy as you think. If we went around sticking everyone who submitted crappy maps in timeout, we'd never have any new mappers, or any new breakthroughs. Original ideas come from new people, not "experienced veterans who know everything". I've been around long enough to realize that. It's also typical that these new original ideas, tend to come attached with a lot of inexperience, but they are usually willing to learn.

I'm guessing you would also claim maps like "FASTEST *" shouldn't be allowed in the Melee section. That's simply not true. People want they want, and our only objective is to give them that. We make it easy to obtain maps, and even easier to publish them. It's almost a guarantee that by submitting your map to Nibbits, whether it sucks or not, you're going to gain a larger audience than you would anywhere else.

Also, if you really were on such a big stance about Melee maps, why is the only guide I've seen outside of a forum post this guys.

You do nothing to stop the cycle your site is facilitating, thus even if it is unintentional, you do indeed rob would-be improving mappers of useful comments.

He has on multiple occasions commented on an obviously flawed map and told the maker that not only was there nothing wrong with it, that it was good. He wasn't lying, he just can't tell the difference. This is not helpful and is a step in the wrong direction.

Blind leading the blind, your comment posters usually don't know any better. I'm using MapGod as an example because he's posted so much, but I'm sure there are others. This is not okay, or at least on SEN it wouldn't be. The reason I'm pushing that so hard at you is because if you're going to be affiliated with us, I'd rather you didn't tarnish SEN's name by association.

Force? No. Try and encourage them in the right direction with the right advice? As staff I feel that is a duty, a responsibility I take seriously and endeavor to do the right thing if only for the betterment of SEN as a whole.

I suggested no such time-out. I would suggest a certain policy about 'If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't hamper your fellow mapper's chances to improve.'
Or something along those lines.

Tell that to Tuxedo_Templar, Heinermann, and BSTRhino.


I think balanced and imbalanced melee both have a time and place. Fastest is disgusting from a tactical industry-melee standpoint but of course on Bnet it has its value. I would not presume to put my personal preferences over that of the userbase. I would merely seek to say 'This is balanced, this is not, and this is what the difference is' so that they are properly informed.

What Nibbits has in quantity it lacks in quality. That isn't how we do things here, and another reason why I am so up in arms.

Any effort I devoted to Nibbits would be in vain because of your policies and your stances. I'd love to help you, but you seem to be fighting me every step of the way simply because I believe in proper, correct information. The people who have come before us in the various SC communities did a lot of work in resources, reference, and tutorials. Taking the time to read what they've given us is in my opinion, a very important part of growing as a mapper. You can't expect to come into any new thing in your life and instantly know or instantly learn everything. And you can't expect letting the uneducated lead the uneducated be a policy I can be at peace with when you are affiliated here.

I think you're seeing things from the wrong perspective Excalibur. Take BWMapGod. To me he doesn't seem like a hardcore map maker (like yourself), thus a simplistic map may please him. Now think about that, because this is the same thing that those dreaded fastest maps give. They, for many people, are perfectly fine maps. However, if you analyze them, they're complete crap. Whether it's a map with a bad storyline, horribly inefficient triggers, balance problems, whatever. Most of the issues the end-user doesn't care about unless it truly hinders their gameplay.

I'm not saying Nibbits couldn't be a lot better if more people like yourself were roaming around giving reviews (if you hadn't seen, we launched an early version of our reviews system a couple weeks ago), but that's just not the case. So I guess, my question to you is, why don't you step in and do something about it?

Edit: Here's a great example of one of those maps which someone took the time to point out http://sc.nibbits.com/maps/project/73807/reviews/3/

I'd love to believe there was something I could do for you, for Nibbits, and for SEN due to this unfortunate affiliation. However from what I've observed, your policies are robbing your userbase of any chance, and any help I might give them would be for naught.

Perhaps I've been at SEN too long or perhaps you've been involved in actual mapping too little, but suffice to say Nibbits and SEN serve two different functions, and I for one, don't approve of their association. I only hope my superiors will note all that I've given in this topic and correct their mistake.

PMs next time?

I was thinking about the same thing, then I saw your post and it made me laugh.

Absolutely not. This was a public discussion about SEN affiliating with Nibbits, and I believe transparency is important in issues like this. I had valid complaints and I feel everyone of my fellow SENners needs to know about why I was so against this so they could make an informed decision themselves.

I agree with Ex here

It's much better to bring things out in the open, than to hide them between a few people. I'll happily address any concerns anyone has, in complete transparency.