hydras overly rigged unless you mass ghost in the middle...

Now thank you very much for this great feedback.

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I suggest a reduction in the spawn rate at the west side. There's this one spot where units spawn at an absurd rate, and it's right in the middle of the path between two major objective points. I suspect it has to do with how locations center on units.

It is supposed to be like this. So all the map isn't evenly filled with zombies. Like hot spots and easy areas.

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I went all vehicles (2 hero Tanks, 3 normal Tanks, 3 Goliaths, SCV, and Kerrigan). Despite 1 shotting everything and taking 0.5 damage from enemy units, I was locked down in place, sloooowly inching forward with 2-3 units at a time. Infantry is so much easier, but I wanted to beat it with vehicles.

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Are the Protoss units worth getting? They're the only ones who can't get extra units that share their upgrades.

Infantry users can recall the Fbat/Marine/Ghost/Medic troops. Ups are shared by Kerri. Medics auto heal. Ghosts are stupidly strong with crazy range.
Metal users can build 3 Tanks and 3 Goliaths with the free SCV (which makes starting with the SCV weaker). SCV repairs quickly and for free.
Protoss...gets nothing. Shield natural regen speed can't compare to Medic heal or SCV repair either.

The game was all the way infantry at the start, added mech and toss to differ the game. Mech with higher armor limit are supposed to be support type of units, you can always use the cloak to get though tight spaces.

How about lifting the toss build limits to 10 for each? This would replace the reinforcement.

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Mines aren't that useful. They're inexpensive, but they die long before you can use them against the units that matter (Hydralisk and Ultralisk). They also splash themselves, nullifying a lot of damage. For the same price, one cast of Battlecruiser deals more damage than 3 casts of Mines (Battlecruiser is normal attack, Mines are explosive). Even if every Mine goes off, the Battlecruiser does more damage.

Buff Mines somehow. Maybe in damage, definitely in defense (invincible, 255 armor with low HP, etc).

Sure I'll add 255 armor to mines, as well increased dmg.

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By the time upgrades get expensive, you can easily fill the map (especially the high ground) with reinforcements. It becomes too easy (Ghosts are insane and counter everything, even Hydras if you place them in the center of high ground and block the ramp with the Medic). I'd recommend a cap on the maximum number of reinforcements to encourage special ability usage.

I'll think about that.

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hydras overly rigged unless you mass ghost in the middle...

You are supposed to be done when the hydras spawn. They are the game-over level. Like if it takes that long for you to finish then you loose.

Quote from SelfPossessed

2. Zombie Wave Suggestions.

Maybe add a wave of Infested Terrans. It's small and sorta melee-ish, which fits the zombie theme. Drones could work as well.

If you don't mind giving players a Comstat to hotkey, you could also have DT spawns. The energy refill option in the Shuttle could work with it. It would force players to pay attention more.

I disagree with the DT thing. Unless they can be one-shotted by almost anything, it'd be a bit imba for the zombies.

Then again, thinking about it, this game is really easy... if you do it right, you never have a single casualty, even if you go total infantry.

Quote from SelfPossessed

3. Protoss

Are the Protoss units worth getting? They're the only ones who can't get extra units that share their upgrades.

Infantry users can get the Fbat/Marine/Ghost/Medic troops. Ups are shared by Kerri and Medics auto heal.
Metal users can build 3 Tanks and 3 Goliaths with the free SCV (which makes starting with the SCV weaker). SCV repairs quickly and for free.
Protoss...gets nothing. Shield natural regen speed can't compare to Medic heal or SCV repair either.

Perhaps have Tesla troopers benefit a tiny bit from Protoss upgrades, like having 5 or so shield points and +1 per weapon upgrade. Or maybe allow for a shield battery to be built, like a Protoss equivalent of a Bunker.

I'd love to see a Dark Archon with maelstrom thrown in somehow.

/agree - I've never used the protoss units except for Tesla Troopers - and I've only used them very sparingly. Their psi storm just isn't powerful enough to make it worth the microing. You're better off with snipers who can auto-target and whose attack power can be upgraded.

Also give the DA feedback for dealing with the Lesser Zombies.

Quote from SelfPossessed

4. Vultures

Out of curiosity, why didn't you add in Vultures?

DO THIS. Please.

My apologies if this seems a little outdated or late - that's because I had some problems with the text and code that I didn't figure out until just today. I actually had this whole thing typed up weeks ago.

Hotspots

Then have the hotspots repeatedly change, preferably along the path to the mission objectives.

DTs

Say DTs are one shottable. Suddenly, Spider Mines and Firebats have more use due to splash; you wouldn't even need Comstat.

Bunkers

I'd like to note that Bunkers are useless due to the lack of armor upgrades for it. You could have it at a lower HP with 255 armor and a slow repair speed so it's viable even later game.

Protoss

A simple fix could be increasing the max number of summons AND making Protoss summons free.

Gameplay Itself

Right now, the main hero character (Kerrigan) is literally invincible until the last cleanup mission (zombies gain vision of you) if you pop the energy ability. Combine that with easy farming hotspots and the optimal strategy is to get the best farmer (GHOSTS) to the best hotspot ASAP while Kerrigan runs around between mission objectives.

You are rewarding only one playstyle; farming. This is why the Ghost is so damn powerful. It is extremely upgrade efficient (lvl 3 can kill 100 hp units, lvl 9 or so can kill 150 hp units) and summonable, which allows you to spend resources on cheaper troops instead of rising upgrade costs. It has ridiculous range while having a small size (fits more in an area) and decent firing speed (not penalized for overfire the way Metal/Protoss is). It can make it up the most important ramps for farming purposes that Metal cannot. Furthermore, there is no need to monitor your Ghosts; once they're in position you're golden.

There is no one better at farming. Number two would probably be Marine+Medic+Firebat simply because they require less attention; you just have to make sure your Medics have energy. Their fast fire rate is also very forgiving in not wasting shots.

In comparison, Metal requires continuous monitoring for repair. Despite their range, they cannot make it up the ramps to the good farming spots. Their slow firing speed means that despite 1 hitting everything, the enemy can still close in, especially if 2+ units decide to fire at the same Zombie.

Protoss...ugh. More units wouldn't really help the cause because there is no means of healing them. You could possibly make Protoss units free to compensate, but even then you would need a constant vigil to constantly create new units. That and the speed of the attacks (both weapon sprites take time to come out) practically guarantees that they will get hit.

Balancing it might be possible, but it doesn't change how the general gameplay is to farm with troops while invinci-Kerrigan roams the map. I think the core issue is that different choices do not allow for unique styles of play. There is no set theme for character archetypes. Why must I always have a Kerrigan hero? What about a DA hero? Or a Probe hero? Why must I be limited to the same summons despite my class?

What if I wanted a sneaky playstyle? Let my main be a cloakable unit like Infested Duran with a focus on the Spider Mine ability, perhaps with a Hallucination Summon for distraction, with uber high damage and low HP. Have an Infested Terran summon for both damage and for consume. Have him be a disabled sprite so that Zombies can pass through him. Have enemy detection units that I have to kill (slow moving overlords perhaps).

What if I wanted a summoner playstyle? Let me be a Medic with an ability to control nearby Zombies, but have a limit to the max number. Set Infested Kerrigan Energy to 0%. Give him a heal all allies ability and/or a restore energy for the Medic as well.

What if I wanted a spellcaster playstyle? Let me be a Dark Archon who can Maelstrom (no MC). Let me summon High Templars with Storm (no hallucination). Give me an ability to reduce enemy HP to a low %, and/or maybe a Defiler summon with Plague. Or maybe even Science vessels with Irradiate.

What if I wanted a tanking playstyle? Let me be a SCV who can summon a Metal ground unit that starts at 1% HP, a super high max HP, and a slow repair speed. Give me a summon for a Metal ground unit with decent damage and lower HP. Add in Science Vessels with Defense Matrix through the Shuttle.

What if I wanted a ranged playstyle? Let me be a ranged unit, your choice which. Give me two or so summon types with different upgrades to force me to balance upgrades based on my style. For example, I could get Marine summons and Siege Tank summons.

The above are all really simple abilities off the top of my head and not well fleshed out. You could also have timed invincible units. If you're fancy, DDS and AI scripts (Irradiated Scourges) could make even more interesting abilities. Nonetheless, it should get the idea that I'm emphasizing across.

Use different character themes and reward different playstyles. Since the only cloakable hero is owned by the Sneaky themed class, farming has be balanced against assaulting the mission objective locations. The Sneaky class won't be that simple as he has to deal with detection as well. Take a look at AoS games for more theme based ideas; the PvP ideas can't be used, but there are plenty PvM concepts that are viable.

I can understand if you would prefer to balance out the existing gameplay for simplicity's sake. However, I believe that your gameplay is inherently flawed and biased such that only one playstyle is truly viable. I'd recommend rethinking your game and adding more playstyle options.

Quote from SelfPossessed

Hotspots

Then have the hotspots repeatedly change, preferably along the path to the mission objectives.

/agree

Quote from SelfPossessed

DTs

Say DTs are one shottable. Suddenly, Spider Mines and Firebats have more use due to splash; you wouldn't even need Comstat.

This is a bad thing?
Yes, you would still need comsat.

Quote from SelfPossessed

Bunkers

I'd like to note that Bunkers are useless due to the lack of armor upgrades for it. You could have it at a lower HP with 255 armor and a slow repair speed so it's viable even later game.

Only way to have slow repair is to have slow build time. Doesn't really work out imo. Bunkers are good as is.

Quote from SelfPossessed

Protoss

A simple fix could be increasing the max number of summons AND making Protoss summons free.

Imo something more needs to be done for Protoss beyond that.

Quote from SelfPossessed

Gameplay Itself

Right now, the main hero character (Kerrigan) is literally invincible until the last cleanup mission (zombies gain vision of you) if you pop the energy ability. Combine that with easy farming hotspots and the optimal strategy is to get the best farmer (GHOSTS) to the best hotspot ASAP while Kerrigan runs around between mission objectives.

I do this, too.

Quote from SelfPossessed

You are rewarding only one playstyle; farming. This is why the Ghost is so damn powerful. It is extremely upgrade efficient (lvl 3 can kill 100 hp units, lvl 9 or so can kill 150 hp units) and summonable, which allows you to spend resources on cheaper troops instead of rising upgrade costs. It has ridiculous range while having a small size (fits more in an area) and decent firing speed (not penalized for overfire the way Metal/Protoss is). It can make it up the most important ramps for farming purposes that Metal cannot. Furthermore, there is no need to monitor your Ghosts; once they're in position you're golden.

There is no one better at farming. Number two would probably be Marine+Medic+Firebat simply because they require less attention; you just have to make sure your Medics have energy. Their fast fire rate is also very forgiving in not wasting shots.

In comparison, Metal requires continuous monitoring for repair. Despite their range, they cannot make it up the ramps to the good farming spots. Their slow firing speed means that despite 1 hitting everything, the enemy can still close in, especially if 2+ units decide to fire at the same Zombie.

I disagree about rewarding farming. Once hydralisks start spawning, it becomes impossible to farm -ANYWHERE-. The player MUST be active and accomplish objectives before hydras start spawning, or he/she is screwed.

However, you're right - mech and toss just doesn't cut it like ghosts do. Farming needs more nerfz. Possible solutions escape me at the moment, but I'll keep thinking about it and let you know, k Gigins?

Quote from SelfPossessed

Protoss...ugh. More units wouldn't really help the cause because there is no means of healing them. You could possibly make Protoss units free to compensate, but even then you would need a constant vigil to constantly create new units. That and the speed of the attacks (both weapon sprites take time to come out) practically guarantees that they will get hit.

I've never used toss. Ever. It's totally useless at the moment imo. Needs buffs - possibly add DTs as a summonable unit? Scatter a few spore colonies around the map, on paths to objectives and near objectives - make them destroyable but not easily so. Could be balanced with not a whole lot of difficulty.

Quote from SelfPossessed

Balancing it might be possible, but it doesn't change how the general gameplay is to farm with troops while invinci-Kerrigan roams the map. I think the core issue is that different choices do not allow for unique styles of play. There is no set theme for character archetypes. Why must I always have a Kerrigan hero? What about a DA hero? Or a Probe hero? Why must I be limited to the same summons despite my class?

What if I wanted a sneaky playstyle? Let my main be a cloakable unit like Infested Duran with a focus on the Spider Mine ability, perhaps with a Hallucination Summon for distraction, with uber high damage and low HP. Have an Infested Terran summon for both damage and for consume. Have him be a disabled sprite so that Zombies can pass through him. Have enemy detection units that I have to kill (slow moving overlords perhaps).

What if I wanted a summoner playstyle? Let me be a Medic with an ability to control nearby Zombies, but have a limit to the max number. Set Infested Kerrigan Energy to 0%. Give him a heal all allies ability and/or a restore energy for the Medic as well.

What if I wanted a spellcaster playstyle? Let me be a Dark Archon who can Maelstrom (no MC). Let me summon High Templars with Storm (no hallucination). Give me an ability to reduce enemy HP to a low %, and/or maybe a Defiler summon with Plague. Or maybe even Science vessels with Irradiate.

What if I wanted a tanking playstyle? Let me be a SCV who can summon a Metal ground unit that starts at 1% HP, a super high max HP, and a slow repair speed. Give me a summon for a Metal ground unit with decent damage and lower HP. Add in Science Vessels with Defense Matrix through the Shuttle.

What if I wanted a ranged playstyle? Let me be a ranged unit, your choice which. Give me two or so summon types with different upgrades to force me to balance upgrades based on my style. For example, I could get Marine summons and Siege Tank summons.

The problem with the above is that once players find a specific combination that works extremely well, none of the others would ever be used. Ergo, balance must be accomplished. That's not easy to do.

Quote from SelfPossessed

The above are all really simple abilities off the top of my head and not well fleshed out. You could also have timed invincible units. If you're fancy, DDS and AI scripts (Irradiated Scourges) could make even more interesting abilities. Nonetheless, it should get the idea that I'm emphasizing across.

Use different character themes and reward different playstyles. Since the only cloakable hero is owned by the Sneaky themed class, farming has be balanced against assaulting the mission objective locations. The Sneaky class won't be that simple as he has to deal with detection as well. Take a look at AoS games for more theme based ideas; the PvP ideas can't be used, but there are plenty PvM concepts that are viable.

I can understand if you would prefer to balance out the existing gameplay for simplicity's sake. However, I believe that your gameplay is inherently flawed and biased such that only one playstyle is truly viable. I'd recommend rethinking your game and adding more playstyle options.

I don't believe that the entire game needs to be redone. However, as good as it is already, it could be better.


One thing I thought of a while back was the following - instead of a Recharge Energy ability, allow players to Enable Cloaking for a short period of time. Accomplishing this is rather easy - while the player does not have cloaking enabled, set energy to 0% constantly. Make cloaking cost 5 energy and when cloaking is enabled, set energy to 100% constantly. As soon as the effect ends, it goes back to 0% and uncloaks the player. It requires the player to use cloaking once it's enabled, but most people are smart enough to do that.

DTs

Worded completely wrong on the DTs. My fault. It's a good thing if they're easily killed. I just wanted more waves before the Hydralisks. If you want the game to end at a certain point, you could just make each wave spawn earlier.

Bunkers

Later on, Bunkers can't take hits worth crap. They're OK early on, but I'd rather rely on Medics or just high ground than a Bunker.

Even if it takes a while to build, a 255 armor Bunker with less HP and slow repair is still more viable. Early on, it shouldn't be as difficult to set it up as long as your troops are nearby. Later on, it can actually do what it's supposed to do; take hits.

Protoss

To summarize, if you want a small change, I mentioned more troops and 0 cost in the previous post. Before that, I also recommended Tassadar summons get attack upgrades, maybe even shield upgrades. Even with those they aren't comparable to Ghosts, but it would be more viable than it is now.

Farming

So long as your hero can stay perma cloaked with no enemy detection, farming is the optimal strategy. It's easy to beat the game even before the hero Zealots come out. Even IF Hydralisks spawn, Ghosts can still beat them if positioned in the center of platforms out of Hydralisk range with a Medic blocking the ramp.

Detection

I mentioned slow Overlords since they can be rebuilt. Since a lot of objectives involves going back to previous points, you need a respawnable unit that can detect. Buildings might cause issues. Recalling missile/floor traps is a possibility but...it doesn't feel zombie-like.

Having an ability that constantly sets energy to 100% and 0% otherwise is too strange. You might as well just have your ghost always set to 100% energy and the special ability disables enemy vision of you for the duration. That or invincibility for a duration, since it's basically the same thing unless detection is added.

Theme

Of course it's hard to balance such varying themes, but that is no reason to shy away from giving the players more playstyle options. Most games that offer varying playstyles are not balanced, but the variety makes it fun. Buff the lesser used styles slightly if they're underused based on feedback. Since the game is not a player vs player, having slightly less efficient styles is completely fine as long as every playstyle is viable.

I still recommend redoing the player abilities. Having every playstyle result in farming is...boring.

EDIT: You could also have a character summon Dropships that your main hero cannot board (makes reaching mission areas absurd). Just run the AI script to unload when you detect the hero loaded. Alternatively, you could allow for Scourge zombies so players could access air units.

EDIT 2: In addition to cloaked units like DTs, you could also have hallucinated Ultralisk spawns as a means of forcing player interaction when farming. If players don't react to it and cast a spell to insta-kill, it will soak up the player's damage output.

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I think the core issue is that different choices do not allow for unique styles of play. There is no set theme for character archetypes.

I called that during beta

This game is super easy. All the player(s) have to do is use their infantry to farm, cloak kerrigan then use the energy refill (giving kerri 250 energy of walking around cloaked; 25 minerals to restore again). After that, it just a lot of walking with the only challenging part being the bunker mission. Even then, just getting 3 tanks and 3 gols = bunker quest done.

What is the last mission? I got to the Super Mutant killing and got him down to 300 hp, then I lost... Game lacks ambiance, there is no music or good terrain.

Quote from TiKels;)

What is the last mission? I got to the Super Mutant killing and got him down to 300 hp, then I lost... Game lacks ambiance, there is no music or good terrain.

The last mission is to kill all remaining zombies.

Is this project dead in favor of CTF Mechfort, Gigins?

Kinda. The map is released and it's kinda good I guess, or not.

Thanks for making this Gigins, it's not the best map, but it's noob accessible AND has strong gameplay.