I actually respect Esponeo a lot more after viewing that video. Hats off.

Wow, Shmidley you changed a lot in like 2 years.

Lol, you sound funny

Dear Esponeo:
Nice, an unorthodox approach, but that takes balls. Kudos. Who or what is that sound at the very beginning and a few seconds in?

Each subject you dealt with, at least until the very end, was something that I brought up. Yet you stuck to the general "you guys." You can refer directly to me if that's who you're talking to or about.

Non sequitur
1. Hypocrisy - This is where generalizing with "you guys" doesn't work. I made the observation on your non sequitur. You made an accusation of hypocrisy. Yet I have never once made the statement that because people are pissed off, you must be doing a bad job. Others may have, but I have not supported that logic by itself. If you feel otherwise, provide a quote and I will clarify.


2. "Not an argument" - Despite the word argument having a broader definition than what you seem to be applying, how is that at all relevant? You made a statement whose conclusion does not logically follow.


Is. That makes it a statement, not a hypothetical. Not a possibility, not a maybe, as you suggested in your video. The only "perhaps" is in reference to whether the idea has occurred to the reader or not. Even if it was a hypothetical, though, it'd still be a non sequitur.

You do realize this is a silly thing to get hung up on, though, right? It's not the end of the world to make a non sequitur, especially over an inconsequential offhanded comment. You're free to admit you made a mistake and amend your stance if it wasn’t what you intended. If you openly don't agree, that's cool, show me where my logic is flawed. If you're just defending because you don't want to be wrong, that's silly. I value being clear, and will admit when I'm wrong or have made a mistake, such as when I used the word "character" inappropriately.



Zell - Dead Man
1. "Strange comment" - So your defense is to claim ambiguity? Referring to anyone as a dead man, when they are clearly not dead, derives from the intent, either literal or figurative, to kill them. Given Zell's stance against you, that sort of comment cannot be interpreted as friendly, in jest, or otherwise polite. Don't insult our intelligence; your intent was very clear, or you picked a very poor choice of words. And to think it was in response to something as simple as a friendly suggestion about handling negative PMs. You could have just absently nodded your head and moved on.


2. "I'm never going to explain it" - I wouldn't expect you to, because I have a sneaking suspicion that you can't without stretching the imagination. Perhaps Zell could clarify what it meant to him.


3. "I found out Zell was not dead" - I got a chuckle. As a distraction it's a bit thin, though.


4. "Quit bitching about that, you just sound dumb, like you're not paying attention. Pay attention." - What was there to pay attention to? All you’ve ever said about it after the initial comment was that nonsense straw man equivocation.

Also, I don’t respond to restrictive demands on what I bring up, or "bitch about", when I see it as relevant to the subject at hand. The administration is welcome to correct me if they feel otherwise, but until they do such commands will fall on deaf ears.

Finally, you can make the same points without insults. All they indicate is immaturity.



Joy. Not Contempt
1. Referring to people as sheep shows contempt.

2. In the beginning of the video, you were adamant that there has not been anger behind anything you’ve written. Anger is not just the furrowed brow and red face some people get. More often, it sulks in the back of someone’s chest, a palpitation of the heart, motivating their actions and attitude. It is twisted into hostility, and precipitates conflicts. The needless negative comments you’ve added throughout this entire experience, knowing you were in the spotlight, demonstrate the irrationality anger lends.

You don’t necessarily have to be angry with the subject at hand to be an angry person. No, that’s where the subtler forms of anger derive from. Rudeness, snideness, disrespect, it all stems from a root source of anger. When you just want to lash out at someone with a crude insult, you pretty much indicate that you’re angry about something.

4. "Smug joy at having victory over… one small thing." – Yes, I could tell you were enjoying yourself in that post. Why would you say that is?



Stop making big posts
1. "If you want to make them, I suggest you type them up, masturbate, then just delete them. Don’t post them." – Lolz. Roflmoa. Roflcopter. Lolrus. Whether or not the accusation of you being a troll has any substance, it certainly seems here like that’s who you want approval from.

You don’t like being under a microscope and dissected. I understand. Sure, you’ve "laughed a lot", but that bluff doesn’t hold when you resort to insults and defensive sarcasm. Ultimately, this is all a test of your character, and how you deal under pressure.

Here’s a question: Why do you want to be a moderator? You don’t have to change one iota of yourself (rules notwithstanding) by being a normal member. In that capacity, you can keep the diatribe you so know and love. As a moderator, though, you will need to be prepared and capable of handling public scrutiny with grace. Ordering us not to just because it’s inconvenient for you is far from the respectable approach.

As I said at the beginning of this ordeal: "When you are given power over what I write and how I interact with others, the quality of your character is of utmost concern."

(Massive post ftw. And don't worry, I don't need to masturbate. I have a girlfriend for that.)

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 3 2008, 9:46 am by Hercanic.

Yea that's exactly what I meant.

Im actually for Espo, Sure there was some Question-able Actions, but that doesn't mean to take away his mod powers.

And why not? It's not like Moose can't replace him...

lol so i just realized that whole dead men thing was about me. nice video. if i remember you said shutup about it but i would like to ask if you think i "swiftly came to your side" because i did for a day or two.. but i thought you would quit deleting all those posts and locking topics which you did a little... yet people continue to complain about them still recently and i got more posts deleted immediately afterwords.. so what im saying is that im not on your side. i've said it SO many times now but just lighten up, i should be able to see the difference in how many people complain. so yea.

back to the dead men thing, you either thought i didnt have a problem with you anymore so i was dead to you and theres no purpose to talk to you or you thought our problem was resolved no reason to talk to me.

on the other side maybe you thought i was still against you and we have already talked so theres no reason to talk anymore or you thought i was against you still so you just didn't wanna deal with me anymore.

im guessing its one of those. either way you should still communicate with some1 no matter how pissy and argumentative they are.

Good point.
Nope. Thought you were actually dead and gone.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 3 2008, 7:42 pm by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: Double post

Actually, Esponeo, if you reread my post about trolling, it was to point out that I don't think it's really a problem with you anymore. A year or two ago, it would have been, but now, it seems that you've turned a leaf (and that's just my perception). With maybe an exception or two (I can't remember everything that I wrote in this thread), I think I've come up with a fair representation of your actions, which I've actually had some decent things to say about.

Have any of you guys heard of Good cop/Bad cop?

I've kinda gotten this feeling that Esponeo fits the role of "Bad cop" perfectly when it just comes to SEN moderation. The only problem is that I don't know who would be the "Good cop." I was thinking it'd be someone like MiniMoose2707...

So I just want to hear this directly from moose, but is this somewhat your intent for keeping Esponeo as a moderator, like having a moderator who may be strict, rude, and aggressive at times have somewhat balance out the moderators who seem to fall more under the "good cop" side? It's like having a bipartisan house, where we can hear about issues from both sides rather than just one.


But whatever your reason is, I feel as though you really need to say something, MiniMoose2707, and not just respond to certain posts made by people dealing with their moderation logs and such. Like why you feel Esponeo is a good moderator and why firing him is not a good idea and etc. Based on this thread alone, it feels like you're not opening up yourself to the community when it comes to dealing with the controversy of Esponeo's position as a moderator (which is one reason why in my other post I was starting to suspect that you're no longer the admin I use to know). Apparently from your lack of action and vocal opposition to Esponeo's removal of his position, we can infer that you are planning on keeping Esponeo, but the real problem here is that we want to actually hear your reasons. I'm sure everyone would want to hear your reasonings as we are more likely to heed the words of an Admin than words of other members or moderators. And if you do so, I'm sure it'll bring this issue to a closer end.

Or maybe he's just trying to keep the heat off himself Now, I'm pretty sure that's not what Moose is going for, as this is a forum, not an interrogation where you want the interogee(LOL) to feel they have a friend.

Not to mention, it's not a problem to have all "good cops" and if Moose asked the ones already in place to step up their strictness, I'm sure it wouldn't be much of a problem, in fact, I'm sure if the old strictness was brought back by ALL moderators, people would complain less, it's just because we have one moderator being extremely strict, and the others following the basic laxness that seems to have originated from Maplantis.

I have no problem with a more strict system that doesn't tolerate anything off-topic at all unless you somehow add to the topic in your post, it's just that Esponeo is doing quite a bit more than that, such as locking topics for a few posts rather than deleting the offensive posts.

Also, I hate to say this, since it may ruin it for me, but it seems that if you guys really don't like him, stay out of the non-SC related forums, because after that first day, I haven't been bothered by him since, and I have stuck with the SC related forums. Now, perhaps me saying that will change it, but it's also easier to stay on-topic when you are trying to help someone, since there's a pretty clear line between on-topic and off-topic.

I like Esponeo well enough, his modding I usually agree with and he (usually) is productive in his forum posts. The 3-4 posts of mine he's deleted were kind of spamm-ish, so I see why he did it.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 4 2008, 1:45 am by Impeached.

Well, ditto. I can see why he deletes some stuff (Like anything I post in the Modding section). But his locking is his problem, i think.

I like the 360 in the back.

Mostly. Unfortunatley some people are stricter that otheres and may not see posts in the same way that you or I might. In some cases, there is a 'line' between spam and junk to information and useful topics.

Of course, we understand why he deleted a post or two, closed a topic, but do we really need to argue. Honetly, it's up to Moose to decide about what happenes toe Esponeo, not us. By this, I mean that a mod's decisions are somewhat final. For example, in a game of Basketball, you don't argue with a Referee about them pulling you up. Same theory here. All I'm saying here is that it's his actions and if there's a problem about it, simply call on an admin, not just fight fire with fire and lash back at them. Obviously, I'm unbiased about this and will see it through on both 'sides' of this argument.

Coincidence.

I typically avoid the modding and melee forums unless a forum report requires me to delve into their dark, hellish depths. For the most part I skim the new posts in all the other forums looking for the signs of an offending post. Beyond that you'll have to imagine for yourself.

That and because we modders know how to be productive and nice people, thanks, Esponeo

I still think that this topic should be closed. I don't see the point. If Moose were to demote you he would have done so already and if you were to change you would have done so already. So I don't get the point. But you guys can keep growing in pages, go ahead.

Ridiculous

Esponeo removed as moderator. If theres any topics he locked or damage he caused that you would like reversed, please tell me.