@Devilin: Sorry I will tone it down, I want this to be a civil discourse not Me vs the world. I apologize.
I'm finally glad you delved into gameplay, it shows your lack of understanding and knowledge of the TS metagame. There are some glaring flaws in your system that will be addressed in this post. You are intelligent, but I am afraid you are not "TS intelligent" however.
"Last time I'm addressing this, it has no purpose... ...there are no exceptions you cannot win without some PvP interaction."
You aren't rewarded for many of those PvP interactions though- other than immediate effects, generally not permanent effects.
Joke statement. Suppressing/Harassing/Killing another hero is the reward in itself, you shouldnt get anymore bonuses besides this. Delaying someones farm is permanent, applying pressure is permanent, denying farm is permanent, killing the other hero permanent. Your system does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Wait, it does, it creates an imbalance for heroes who can harass well or be in two places, a la assault, at one the others are screwed to the scraps. It also gives pubstars an excuse to do pubstar actions, Fashioned has mentioned this as well.
"Stop LM from grinding? Thats easy, spawn manipulation make him miss spawn or waste time changing lanes. Since LM is on the opposing team generally means you won a free cap 99% of the time that means sims and sims outside."
Then end up feeding the other players on his team 2x. Also, his teammates could easily be adept sim killers.
We're talking competant players remember, I will give it to splasher on my team, or the the enermy who cannot handle the mass influx of spawn.
Adept sim killers you say? Lets see here Archer (One of the best), Assault(Slow but guaranteed to die through continued efforts), Sin (One of the best), Summoner (Probs the best, but slow to do so).
So let me ask you this question when is the last time you've seen LM,Archer, and Sin? Probably in some random pub much because its a shitty team. You gave away two caps for free just off the picks alone. Archer granted, can definitely hold his own but with the lost caps from LM and Sin, the other two teamates are will rape free to rape archer. If you throw in assault hes STRICTLY average at the VERY best in terms of capping so hes not guaranteed to cap anything either. If you say summoner then I am just going to lol.
The point is if the LM has adept "Sim killer(s)" You are losing map control from the start of game to bank LM becoming unbeatable. Yea, LM unbeatable yea see the oxy moron? Anyone with two or more caps is going to secure the outside sims as well, suprisingly even pubs have caught on to this tactic of building sims outside the caps to bolster the advantage even more. Your response was a typical pubstar response (No offense what so ever intended in saying this but it is truth).
"Again a useless function, if someone is doing bad they are doing bad. If someone is dominating through skill or a nice counter pick, don't reward the person whos doing poorly."
If someone is losing, you give then a chance to ge back if they have tried hard enough. It doesn't necessarily have to be an easy chance at getting back either, but it makes things interesting. It's not rewarding bad play.
Ah, your true colors are coming out and this is a good thing. I don't think you grasp the fundamentals of gameplay in TS. TS is built on making comebacks, its already inherently in the design. Examples being:
-Wally and company in the tournament coming back from the spawn cheese.
-Maxx, albeit trolling, proved he beat Faz-/Decency and friends multiple times 1v3.
-Myself and iceman16 in a tournament match when fdsa72 dropped still winning 2v3.
-In the 2nd tournament Maxx and Iceman didnt have a solid third, still continued on to win, despite going against three well established team memebers in the finals
-Twoja,tinypest and some random knowing they cant win through pure hero play used spawn to rape the tourney.
If you want to comeback use skill, not some pubstar handicap system to encourage bad play.
"What is left for the PvPer? Call for a tag out. It is viable to tag out"
Not always. Such as if you are countered by all three (four) foes. Or someone stalks you to take all your feed.
Ah, This is the your "gotcha" statement. Someone who picks poorly who is countered by all 3-4 (*COUGH* MUTANT/SPECOPS *COUGH*) is bad and is pubstar. Your system encourages bad play, why? Well you said it yourself below, lets see what you say.
Those are character specific. Mutant is not a harasser, but a PKer- and the system would still help him. You said he's getting shutdown from grinding anyway (assuming he couldn't grind other lanes, AND assuming he can't grind behind enemy bases, or else he should be doing that) He could get exp for attempting kills. Throwing out a sloppy L2 that barely hits or doesn't hit will give negligable to no exp, while an L2 that nearly kills them gives them some fair exp to reward them for landing a good L2, and more so for a kill. The L2 kill fit's mutant player's playstyle, and part of the exp goes into L2 dmg, while he could still choose where most of the rest goes to. Alternatively, the pub dies to an enemy hero for stupid actions. Well pubs do stupid actions such as going rambo in the first place. Lesson learned- don't charge into them again; or perhaps they learned how to more effectively harass. If the pub didn't learn, then the problem lies with the player that couldn't learn from the original TS anyway. Warrior is similiar to mutant in that he could get attempted kill exp, although warrior doesn't generally have a problem grinding. Sin couldn't harass at day to begin with, is there any loss here? Assault could get exp for his stun chain combos, he's probably trying to kill- if not, then he's either assisting or harassing, which still gets him stun lvl exp.
The fact you said "Character specific" rings an alarm in my head, anyone with half a brain will counterpick ling all day to nullify him he may be on the low tier but once hes pumped hes a monster. You also say your system rewards people who are more PvP oriented by harassing. If mutant is shut out of his lane, what do you suppose he will do? I know, tell us Flashbeer
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He could get exp for attempting kills. Throwing out a sloppy L2 that barely hits or doesn't hit will give negligable to no exp, while an L2 that nearly kills them gives them some fair exp to reward them for landing a good L2, and more so for a kill.Yes, encourage the mutant to L2 the: Volt with L2/DM with mael and curse/Warrior with 10atk plus a stun/Assault with bomber/SpecOps with sniper+satellite/Archer with L3/LM with L1+L2 or L1+L3 combo/Mech who can trans out of L2. Is this REALLY smart?
Bad examples, Warrior and Assualt have good hp and escape mechanisms ling does not.
You keep mentioning an attempt to use L2 to kill someone and your lack of understanding the gameplay mechanics of ling is glaring. L2 is used NOT as Attempt/harass move, as it is easily dodged. When you know you have a clear window to kill the opponent its used to kill them on the spot, 0 retaliation. The only other move like this is Sins L4. If you want to harass use L3, which isnt really viable. I find it odd you keep saying the mutant can use L2 as a harass tactic which clearly shows your fundamentals are weak.
So let me ask you this question again, your system doesnt encourage pubstar play and feeding?
"If the average pub is getting spanked in his lane and he figures he can get some, unreliable EXP, for randomly running around the map trying to hit people spells he will do so. This encourages bad behaviors."
It's not a substitute for grinding, but if that player can't grind, then else should he do? It would be better that the player harass and slow the other player from exping or try to kill the enemy hero, rather than sit somewhere. How is this a bad behavior? I've stated before that players wouldn't roam around casting spells if they could grind and need exp.
Lowering the skill ceiling is always bad, catering to the "OMG LM AND LING ARE SO OP'D" Crowd negatively affects everyone else. Giving out free handicaps is NOT the way to go. I am also seeing a pattern here your system is designed to help those who build poorly designed teams or tactical errors in hero choices a.k.a pubstars.
"Some heroes can abuse this system to death, Archer, Volt, SpecOps to name a few."
For players that could easily land spells/grind with their spells, it could easily be adjusted so that they get much less exp than they would for landing a much harder spell.
Right, so pubs who rape with mutant will be rewarded, more encouraging of more bad habits. While a pub of a similar skill level struggling with a skillful hero like Assault doesn't get a reward "because its easier to land". I love the balance within your system.
"What isn't clear about it? I have stated that it was to cater to another style of play more involved in PvP"
"Why is is so bad that you get a bit extra spell exp for landing spells? It's not a substitute for grinding."
It's not a substitute, it's an alternative- which is different. "Grinding will still give more overall exp for all spells in general." landing spells will give more exp "than grinding for a particular spell you are working on."
Giving a reward for something you should be doing properly in the first place a reward is not bad? Fashioned already clarified what i said: Rewarding something for nothing encourages bad play. If you fail to kill someone you shouldnt be rewarded, especially if you die. The reward is LANDING the spell you shouldnt give bonuses for doing so. This will reinforce bad play. You have no idea, how many times in TS that pubs would wander aimlessly around trying to kill things. In fact ask the player Derelict, he would know. The fact i know all of them by name should tell you something. The next thing we need is this: "Lulz i died but i got exp for my L2 XD".
I'm wondering if you played temple siege regularly or you just mapped it regularly.
"Anyways, those actions you listed that get a reward require concentrated efforts and generally lead to something better overall for the team. Casting spells that land should be the reward, you don't need exp for something you should be doing on a regular basis each second in the match."
Killing enemy players benefits the team, and you can't kill without attempting to kill. Assisting with killing/spells helps the team. Harassing and enemy to slow his grinding helps the team. Grinding for the most part, only benefits individuals. Killing the spawns should be the reward, you don't need exp for something you should be doing on a regular basis each second in the match. It doesn't sound so good if you phrase it that way either. You should be killing heroes, you should be killing buildings, etc.. you still get exp for those. Why do you get exp for doing some actions but not other? It's mostly spell specific exp as well for using the spell.
Because it causes inbalances and reinforces bad play thats why. Everyone in some way shape or form can kill buildings, kill heroes, kill spawn. Not everyone is a good harasser, not everyone can be in two places at once, people cannot teleport like sin can, nobody has summons like summoner. Thats why we have tiers for heroes. Seriously think about what you are saying. Realize that even if these problems could be worked around your system ADDS NOTHING.
"No. Because not all heroes have to leave the lane. Assault can still grind lane and use bomber to "level up" his spells Effectively doing 2x training at once. Same with DM. SpecOps with satellite. While ling is struggling to land L2 and barely laning, he wont land L2 btw, remember competent players? This system is unbalanced."
That's fine. Assault has to still land his bombs. Players don't just let themselves get bombed on- if he does, then lvl ups for bomber. I thought you said assault doesn't generally harass, he just stuns to death, meaning he would be killing or assisting. The system could be made so stunning with the bomber would give more exp for following up with an attack, rather than just for 2x exping as well. Same goes with the other heroes, using those spells to attack, or perhaps when a foe is low on hp will give more exp than harassing. Even so, those players are using their spells, which also lvls them up slightly faster. It's not as if the amount of exp you do get from using it, would change the way you play too much, just allow it to grow. It's seems natural that the more you use an ability, the stronger it gets.
Of course players don't let themselves get bombed on, but its very hard not to. At night, it cant be helped you will probably be bombed on. You also fail to realize there is no risk in say bombing a warrior in my next lane while I am farming, while Mutant will struggle to land L2. Mutant might fair better with L3 but that costs an 80 whopping mana to level the skill up once and may not guarantee a killed. While Bomber has four bombs to use, can be no risk, and can safely farm in his lane. Your system is imbalanced and still adds nothing.
"-Spell expansions: Ya my idea that I advocated"
This is a separate tangent to this debate. Others had the idea before you as well.
"-Morale systems: There is a reason nobody played the verison with the morale system"
And it had nothing to do with the morale system. The map was never finished and that was the reason why.
-Items: I Said consumables, at a cooldown worth a day and some armor, but also only one item slot per hero."
I said what we were thinking about implementing.
"Best to remove trash before it stinks."
Best to remove your attitude before it stinks.
-Oh I know they had the idea, I just expanded on it more thoroughly. I guess "my" was the wrong word, I apologize however I gave credit to shredder and others for advocating this idea.
-It was never finished and there was no buzz or hype to play it, because why? Nobody liked it.
-Okay, understood.
-Ownage.
Edit:
I think Fashioned is right. If someone gets the advantage in one area of the game, it's not as fun to take away that advantage by default. It's better to give the disadvantaged player more options that they can take to get back in the game. I understand wanting a different area for the disadvantaged player to approach, but using spells happens in any case when you're laning. The only difference that makes is the laning advantage is lessened.
Thats another saying this system is not good. So Myself, Fashioned, and now owls. I hope you can see the pattern here.
Final ThoughtsLets hope Moose and CAFG can get back on board, they could map but also grasped the fundamentals of TS. You are intelligent however, its a waste because you don't grasp the basics and fundamentals. If your fundamentals are weak and pubstar, your ideas for the next generation will reflect this. Adding guys like this to the team will put the future of TS in jeopardy.
Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on Feb 27 2011, 9:48 pm by DoLLe.
None.