Recently somebody posted this link at shoutbox: Does High IQ Trump God?

It's been some time that I realized that every person who has any kind of religion that I know and observed has some/many problems with logic.
After I read this article it makes me think: in general, is this merely a coincidence or not? What facts can be used for or against the claim?

Leave your viewpoint below and, please, be mature.

My logic is sound. I have very few problems with logic. I have my own religion. You can use this as a fact against the claim, but since you included the "in general" clause, it's unlikely you will be able to use it.

I, however, think it's natural for smarter people to believe less in religion. The average human IQ increases significantly each year, or at least it would if we didn't update the test each year. Religion is/was invented to tell people how to be happy and to explain the unexplained. As we explain more, it's only natural that religion would fade out, and smarter people would be the first to understand the previously unexplained.

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Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 5 2018, 4:02 am by DavidJCobb. Reason: ignorant

I agree with the article. As science and technology progresses we should see more people who are logical or else you could not function in society.

fear is a poor word choice, though I don't know what word fits. I don't know how to solve for the flux of a complex binomial equation, but it doesn't mean I'm afraid not knowing the answer.

Perhaps there's also a connection with the East Asian's larger brains. However, it's pretty clear that there's some sort of evolutionary advantage inherent Christianity.

Could you explain more about that?

The problem is not with religion. It's with dogmatism and the systematic endoctrination used by religions (mostly the western ones) to convey the values they judge best.

Individuals who do not establish their own system of values through solitary reflection, id est, they do not determine what is good and what is wrong independently of the beliefs of others, are very likely to be idiots. I firmly believe in God although I have a deistic approach to faith. I may have been raised as a catholic but I do not think that it had any influence on my choice of belief.

I choose to believe in Him because I think that there are no means for us alone to determine the objective "goodness" of this universe. Raw reason alone, at length, inevitably brings one to the conclusion that there is no objectivity; all actions are equally good or wrong. There would therefore be no reason to our existence through that logic. I thus hope that this objectivity truly exists and that one being (God) is aware of it.

I have no proofs that God really does exist but it is in my best interest to believe in him. Otherwise, my very existence would be meaningless.

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Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 5 2018, 4:02 am by DavidJCobb. Reason: ignorant

David, I agree with your words.

Sometimes I think: why is everyone seeking pleasure and comfort? Because it's good. But why? What answer is beyond "good"? Why isn't it the otherwise?
You keep thinking until you get stuck. It's like trying to define beauty.

Although the answer seems to be unreachable, we do know that having a good life is important, making use of your time the way you want to use without worries.

I wish I could believe in God and afterlife. My biggest fear is death, since, for me, I will just fade out and it's then over. Once I had my own religion too, but after some years the pieces I had in mind couldn't match anymore.

But I sincerely hope that I'm wrong cause my viewpoint is extremely sad and depressing - not due to the shortness of life, but because we are part of a whole system that consumes a great deal of our time: you study for more than a decade and work for the rest of your life. Somehow I'm talking about capitalism, economy and all that stuff, which together I call "the system".

Back to the main subject, one of the reasons that made me create this thread was a phrase that I saw "tattooed" on the back of a car yesterday saying: "come yourself to God, and He will come to you." Sounds like some really obscure logic for me.

I'd like to thank everyone for taking your time and posting here. I find these kind of discursions really interesting.

Why? By what standard is the meaning you create yourself more purposeful or better than a meaning given to you by some God, whether he be real or fake? What makes the fact that you created this "meaning" better than the fact that someone else, or some higher power created it? How is it that you judge yourself superior to God, assuming he exists? If he doesn't exist, how is it that you judge yourself superior to another?

Just some more food for thought, a quote from Francis Bacon: A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion.

Isaac Newton - Christian
Galileo - Christian
Copernicus - Christian
Sir Francis Bacon - Christian
Johannes Kepler - Christian
Robert Boyle - Christian
Michael Faraday - Christian
Gregor Mendel - Christian
Kelvin - Christian
James Clark Maxwell - Christian
Max Planck - Christian
Albert Einstein - Religious, believed in a god of some sort
Pascal - Christian

Do I need to continue? Hundreds of incredibly intelligent men and woman have been faithful Christians throughout the ages. The idea that intelligence will most likely cause you to be atheist is faintly ridiculous.

Christianity isn't there to explain the unexplained. Perhaps some religions are but not true christianity. While it does happen to explain many unexplainable things, that isn't its purpose. Because of that, people don't become Christians because they aren't intelligent enough to explain certain things in their lives; that has nothing to do with it.

I don't know if those people count though Jack. Back then if you weren't Christian they'd kill you. We all know the Galileo story, and he didn't even mention atheism, he just proposed that the Earth isn't the center of the solar system.

Yes you need to continue. You did not list anywhere near hundreds. (you are just exaggerating)
And Albert Einstein is an interesting case. I do not think you could call him fully religious because he was atleast a deist if not also a humanist and he seemed like an agnostic.

They'd kill you if you weren't Catholic; however from what I remember, Galileo was, in fact, a devout Christian, regardless of what the catholics thought of him.

Johnny, if you really want me to, I can post many more christian scientists who were clearly highly intelligent; it may take me a while as I am limited to a cellphone as my only means of internet access right now.

That's not an argument. The others are trying to say that there is a certain correlation between religion and stupidity, not that no religious person can be intelligent. Quoting somebody else's argument, although not commendable, would still be acceptable if it's complete and logically sound.


You failed to understand my words. Making up what is good and what is wrong is admitting that there is no objective meaning to the universe. My faith in God stems from the fact that I want the universe to have a true immutable meaning that exists outside of myself, just as I want the universe itself to truly exist and not just be the product of my imagination.

As Vrael said, I don't see how making up random values is any better than making up that there is a God. They are both unfounded and you have no means of proving the truth in either.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 8 2010, 12:42 pm by chia-tyrant.

I think it really depends on the reasons you believe in God. Between having random values and believing in Him for fear, I take the first alternative as being better and even healthier. Maybe David somehow referred to such situation, in which you cannot do whatever makes you feel good due to religion's rules.
However, your case is different: you have your own thoughts and conclusions about that, and I would even say that your choice is more solid and viable in the meanings of having a good life since it makes you have less dillemas and unanswered questions than an atheist or a skeptical would have.

Slightly related to this subject, I have an amazing video that I bet most of you have seen already to show:


In my opinion, things would be better if every single person had its own religion. Perhaps the reason I see a great level of ignorance related to religions is the influence of the masses - there are so many people involved that there will inevitably be many ignorants into it. And then I hear somebody say in my classroom: "If the Big Bang really existed, let me explode a Beetle to see if I get a Ferrari." What an absurd about an abstract theory to be told to other people...

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 8 2010, 1:26 pm by adeon.

Although not religious myself, I think I read somewhere about how religion makes you brain operate in a more... efficient way?

Gonna have to dig for an article.

There are no means to determine an objective "good"? Also, how does reason alone come to the conclusion that all actions are equally good or bad? And, wouldn't that conclusion be an objective definition of good if it were a definition defined by man?

Also, why couldn't there be any reason to exist without good or bad choices? Maybe the point to living could be custom constructed by each individual and modified at the individual's will. For example while playing MMORPG games, there often is no clearly defined overarching goal that players strive toward, instead players construct their goals during gameplay, which in turn creates meaningful and enjoyable play. If you take this mode of playing and apply it to real life one could enjoy their life by constructing and striving for their own goals -is that not meaningful?

That is an interesting idea. Although, all humans are flawed in different ways and no two humans are perfectly alike on all facets. So with this in mind, if each person were to have their own religion, their religions would differ between each other. What if two people believe in opposite sides of a matter which were mutually exclusive from one another? Say I believe man A is going to hell, and man B thinks man A is not going to hell. Well there are only two options: Man A is going to hell; Man A is not going to hell. Which of us is the right one? We can't both be right and we can't both be wrong, so one must be right and one must be wrong. Think about how many instances of similar scenarios would appear if everyone on the planet had their own religion, is that really better?

I think it would be better than the mass religion but it will not be better than being irreligious.
Yes it would be better because it will help kill groupthink. It will stop people from mindlessly following preachers.

If you think about that, it already happens the way it is now (and often between people from the same religion). There should be a basic ethical solution for that: one should mind its own busness and not trespass the other's limit. Then, even if A is incompatible with B, there won't be conflicts. It's just A and B, not A 'killing' B (or the otherwise).