I wana test this!! Bots are like the coolest thing ever. I would always get pissed at consol games for not having bots...and now you add them to sc?? pretty damn sick man. so yeah, tester?? please!!

also, do you have a release date for this map?

I'd like to test also.

You're in man!

No release date yet, testing will start soon.
You're in!

On a side note. Main goals in testing will be balance, bugs and bot optimizations. They are still pretty basic. Defense bots build defense units by the best of their ability. Offense bots build up offense units and attack on a random route. Flag runner builds up shields and goes for the flag. We will test and see whats to be added to optimize each of the 10 bots.

I would like to test.

Finally a CTF map where you don't need human opponents.

You're in mate!

And yes finally. CTF maps require at least 4 players because 1 vs 1 just isn't a challenge. Well cheer up, I made 8 vs 8 possible!

CTF MechFort v0.85 closed beta released! Waiting for your reports guys!

Ahhh! I want in! Looks like i might be 8 hours late ><

Atm a small report of some bugs with the bots early on.
Defence bots like to clog up the main base, and early game is slightly harder, with bots having a set amount of HP on all their spawned units.
Might want to limit how many units the defence bots make and/or where the attack bots keep their units until they attack.

Each bot has 5 starting skills just like human players. And bots don't level up.

Defense 1:

• +1 Power core
  
• +2 Artillery sentry
  
• +2 Defender

Defense 2:

• +1 Power core
  
• +1 Artillery sentry
  
• +2 Terminator
  
• +1 Spider mines

Offense 1:

• +2 Power core
  
• +3 Tank

Offense 2:

• +2 Power core
  
• +3 Terminator

Flag Runner:

• +2 Power core
  
• +3 Metal shield

Ok, so I ran into something... interesting. I played a singleplayer match, selecting two offense bots, one flag runner bot, and one defense bot for each team. Here are the results:


I figured out that you can wall this area with the transformation device. That's not the intended use for that device, so I thought you might want to see it. Whether or not you do something about it is up to you. I don't really care either way.


The single defense bot, once it had been left alone for a while, started making a bunch of defensive stuff. It only got the opportunity to do this because:


...the offense bots were busy doing this the whole time. And


more kept arriving. It got


kind of out of hand, as you can see. I was eventually able to


farm the enemy's flag endlessly, which got boring as heck. I got so many levelups, it wasn't even funny. Maxed out terminators and defenders, not to mention metal shield and some other miscellaneous stuff.

So yeah, blue's bots seem to be on steroids. I didn't help much, trust me - it's the first CTF game I ever played.

Even with these glitches, I can see that it's an amazing game!

However, I have some suggestions:

• Add a mineral patch behind each flag to prevent walling. Not sure how you can cause flag running bots to use it as a human would, but humans are the main point behind this game.
  
• Add bot levelups and bonuses for the losing team.
  
• Add three defaults for beginning players - an offense, a defense, and a flag runner. They could be exactly the same as the bot defaults.
  
• Customizable bots?
  
• Keep up the good work! I look forward to the completion of this wonderful project, even with SC2 so close.

Finally,
YOUR TERRAIN IS PWNAGE.

Very nice report!
I guess it's not a serious issue since you can build only 1 supply depot and while it's blocking the path you can't form any units.

About the Blue bot dominating Red. This is kinda random. When you set the same bots for each team and do not interfere, one team will eventually dominate. This is random because it's depending on which course the offense bots will choose, which is decided by random switches. While defense bots spread their sentries evenly through the base, offense bots focus on one particular base entrance. If both offense bots happen to attack the same spot once or twice they will probably break the defense and kill the defending bot's SCV, which nulls all the pre-build defense. This eventually happens on both teams with a random factor.

For more challenging game try different combinations of bots like full red and only 1 blue D and 1 O bots. For defense training try full red against 1 blue O and 1 Flag runner.
Care to explain more about this concept? I don't really understand what exactly you mean.
Now this is a good idea. Should I reset the bot level after SCV death the same as for human players? I implied bot levels in the system so it will be easy to add them. I guess +1 Power core would be good enough as they'll start producing more units.
I'll think about it, but I think it's not worth implying since you can choose your abilities after each death.
Let's optimize the bots instead. So they don't need to be customized.
Tnx tnx! Keep up the good work, very useful report!

@Gigins:
Possibly add a single player detect, so that if the bots get crowded up, you can remove some of them, I really found it aggravating when I couldn't get out of my own base because it was so crowded.

@ImagoDeo:
Try testing your self with 1 defence in a game, and if thats too easy for you, go to 2.
After that, try the same with offence bots.
Then try against the flag-runner, I'm less rusty than I was before by trying this(too many CTF games against newbs lately).

Any time. Expect more as I keep playing.


Yeah, I figured.


I thought it might be something like that. However, it was getting to the point where I couldn't even capture because there were too many bot-created units in the way. This is a problem. I think you should limit the number of units that offensive bots create based on the strength of the defense. That might be hard to do, though.


Oh, don't worry, I'll do more testing under various circumstances. I might even pop onto USEast and get into op sen to see if there's anyone there who wants to test the beta with me. That would be ideal.


SCVs float over other units when they have mining orders.


Yes, the reset should be in there. However, by bonuses for the losing team I meant temporary mineral accumulation boosts and other things not bot-related. I also believe that bots should gain experience in the same way that players do, although perhaps to a lesser extent. Depending on how you're doing things, you may be running out of death counters already, but you could consider letting bots gain experience and level up and maybe even select upgrades based on the current opposition.


I meant to simplify things for beginners. When I started that first game, I was like -WHOA- there's a lot to choose from... what does it all do? I'm confuzzled. A lesser man would have given up then and there.


Yeah. You have a point. Customization would bring in a whole host of problems to be dealt with.

Sorry that I tested late. Anyways, the map was nice. I like the total change of the game play where you can customize your own type of units. I played it single player because I couldn't find anyone to play with.

Some problems I ran into which was probably listed above was that the blue player would mass tanks and block red's flag beacon. At the beginning, the red bots were pretty hard because they where spamming the metal armor. Towards the end, it was extremely easy.

I think since CTF is a team type of game, there should be an option to kind of control your ai bots. Like backing up for your probe, returning to base to help kill the scv with the flag, etc.

The bots are too easy to defeat.

These screenshots are from a game I played against 1 Flag runner, 1 Offense, and 1 Defense. I had no bots on my team.




Yeah, it was really easy. The enemy only capped three times, and that only happened when an offense bot strike hit at the same time as the flag runner was coming. I walled with three terminators/defenders and the enemy bot couldn't get through my wall. It just sat there until it got killed. I was a bit hard-pressed until I got level 5 terminators, but after that it was easy as pie. Eventually I overwhelmed their defenses, as you can see.

Bots should definitely level up. And I really need some human competition - perhaps we could arrange a 3v3 sometime between those of us who have the beta?




Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 27 2010, 4:18 pm by ImagoDeo.

Sorry for not posting for so long.

Fixed the middle part as you suggested.
Fixed the caster shield, all of it.

Any suggestions how to make computer SCV pass through walls? Maybe teleport it over the wall as soon as 1 is detected?

Any balance reports? Any specific suggestion how to improve bots? xD

To tell the truth, I didn't expect bugs (having also played Mercury and seeing only one there), but I found 'em anyway.

IIRC, there's a particular AI script that might be of use here. The main difficulty is that AI scripts can't be overwritten once they've started. How would one go about detecting a wall?

Yeah. I'd suggest that you add a few things that I've thought of over the past few days, as follows:

• (If bot levelups are added) Split each base zone into three sections, each section corresponding to a particular pathway that can be taken. Every two minutes (could be adjusted), an offensive bot that has leveled up will take the pathway that leads to the section with the least number of foes, as if the bot has used the comsat.
  
  
• Give the flag runner bots more intelligence! If they encounter a significant amount of resistance (say 10 opponents in a 10x10 location centered on them), make them turn back and rebuild metal shields.
  
  
• Vary the flag runner bots a tad. Instead of always using the same combination, how about giving them variations such as caster shields or cloak shields? Throw in a repair matrix and have them use it before they set out to run the flag.
  
  
• Please, please, please prevent defense bots from constructing too many artillery sentries on the ramps up to the flags. I've seen them try to cram upwards of eight sentries in there, and it gets overcrowded. Eventually, it becomes impossible to get the enemy flag to your own beacon!
  
  
• This little ^-shaped section needs to be deleted imho.
  
  
• The flag zone is low-ground. This tends to cause vision problems - because the upper portions of the ramps count as high ground.
  
  
• I think that a Xel'naga watchtower-like structure in the northern pathway and one in the south, down in the corner, might add a bit more dynamic gameplay. The structure(s) doesn't(don't) even have to provide vision, specifically - they could add some other kind of passive bonus; but there's definitely some stuff you could do to improve the gameplay (even given how good it is already).
  
  
• As to the bot levelup system... do you have enough death counters to keep track of experience and current bot levels and upgrades and such? Your system works extremely well already, keeping track of individual bots and such, but I do think it could be improved. I believe you said that the system was designed with bot levelups implied but not implemented. Well, I think it needs to be implemented.
  
  
• I still think you should add a default setting for newbs. All those different upgrades to choose from can be -VERY- confusing at first.
  

Wow, that's a long list. If you feel daunted, don't worry - it's all up to you. These are just suggestions. Don't overload yourself with too much work - I know real life can get very busy sometimes, even without maps to work on.

Can't expect the first beta of massive trigger experiment to be bugless either.
When the flag bot reach certain location and there are too many units or something like that. Maybe a specific timer that counts for how long the bot is stalling.
That would make the gameplay less random, good idea.
I could have a counter for how many times the bot has failed to get to the flag. When he fails for like 3 times, he's changing his build. and so on. Have like 3 different build.
I'll add a limit of 4 to that waypoint, so if there's 4, he just skips it in his scheme.
Ok.
I don't think that matters a lot.
Nah.
Well I knew I would run out of DCs in this project so I used my DCs wise. Each bot has a player assigned who runs his DCs, player doesn't even have to be in game to store DC information so it worked fine. The only exception are flag runners as they are bot#09 and bot#10, they have duplicated DCs. So, I have lots to spare.
Lets focus on that when we're closer to release, if ever.

I'm truly lucky to have you in my team. Heck we 2 are the team. The rest of my testers just used the chance to have a look at my experiment early stages. Most haven't even reported.

I suppose not.


I think an inverted location tracking system would work best for checking if the bot's stalled. However, to compensate for 'wiggling', make the location significantly smaller than the SCV's collision box.


Glad to be of service.


Works. I could put together a list of the various upgrades each build should have to save you the trouble.


I figured it would be a quick fix.


I didn't really thing so either, but it can get a little bothersome if your foes somehow get vision from behind the wall on the back of the flag zone. For example, if a bot is trying to run the flag and you've blocked it off, but the bot is giving vision, and an offense bot strike force comes from the northern path, they can shoot at your wall and any units that you have inside the zone, whereas your own defenses won't be able to see them 100% of the time and therefore will be at a disadvantage.

Just something for you to consider.


Meh, ok.


Ingenious. I might have thought of that eventually if faced with a similar situation, but it's still ingenious.


All right. I'll compose a list of several basic builds anyway.


Can't think why. It's a good game. Perhaps SC2's influence is like gravity - growing stronger the closer it gets.



Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Apr 9 2010, 2:05 am by ImagoDeo.

A few comments on the builds.

I'll need some kind of additional selection shop for beginner builds.
Only repair matrix lvl5 repairs the shields so the 3 points would be a waste since the system can't detect SCV's HP. Only possible use would be to run it as soon as the shield goes down and bot cant get it up right in the second. Out of logic that the shield went down because the bot is under heavy fire and when the repair matrix shoots it will actually save some HP. And the Energy Scan VHP is a joke.
Bots have close to nothing use for the caster shield because even if we could make the Sci vessel to cast the defensive matrix, it still can't cast spells on invincible units, which the SCV is while shield is up. And whatever AI action we will try to get out of the Sci vessel, it will be canceled by constant move order.

What I was thinking about would look like this.
Scheme#1 Flag runner #1
*Power core x2
*Metal shield x3
AI: build up 3 shields > rush

3x failures to pick up flag > Scheme#2

Scheme#2 Flag runner #1
*Power core x1
*Metal shield x4
AI: build up 4 shields > accumulate energy for additional shield > rush
Point: to have highest possible amount of HP upon rush without sacrificing power core. That is 4 +1, +1 additional shield if energy is gathered while the 5 shields are taking fire.(27 seconds)
Level up: +2 power core > +2 power core > +1 power storage +1 metal shield > cap as the bot has reached his maximum potential.

Scheme#2 Flag runner #2
*Power core x3
*Metal shield x2
AI: build up 2 shields > accumulate full energy > rush
Point: To have intermediate amount of HP upon rush while having good rebuild capabilities. With 2 +1, +1 additional shield as it takes less than 5.3 seconds to gather the 250 energy. And still capable to build 1 extra shield in 13.5 seconds.
Level up: +1 power core +1 metal shield; +1 power core + 1 power storage; +1 metal shield + 1 power storage; +1 metal shield + 1 power storage; +2 power storage > cap as the bot has reached his maximum potential.

Scheme#2 Flag runner #3
*Power core x4
*Metal shield x1
AI: build up 1 shield > accumulate full energy > rush
Point: Have minimum amount of HP upon rush while having maximum rebuild capability. With 1+1, +1 additional shield in 4.1 seconds. Being capable to restore shield every 10.8 seconds.
Level up: +1 power core + 1 metal shield; +2 power storage; +1 metal shield + 1 power storage; +1 metal shield + 1 power storage; +1 metal shield + 1 power storage > cap as the bot has reached his maximum potential.

5x failures to pick up flag > Scheme#1

Bots in scheme#2 would be decided in random order

Bots loose levels and experience upon death just like human players.