I prefer to discuss things in the public.

This thread is to discuss this topic: http://www.staredit.net/topic/9208/

Here is Mini Moose 2707 telling me about arrogance.

Here is UnholyUrine cursing and flaming my map before playing it.

Here is Mini Moose 2707 starting a tangential discussion (e.g. spam).

I may have been arrogant. Is arrogance a crime on these forums? I believe arrogance is misplaced confidence.

Thank you. Discuss.

There's a difference between thinking your map is extremely good and defending it, and being straight out arrogant about it. I think most people don't mind that you think your map is good, but the way you convey that through your attitude is extremely off-putting. You have such a condescending attitude towards anyone that criticized your map, it's really not in good taste at all. People try to give you some points and it seems like you just straight out ignore them, the way you talk, you act like everything you say is right, and not many people really enjoy that tone.

For everyone's reference, here are the original un-edited and/or deleted posts from the topic. The removed portions have been underlined.

You shouldn't take things like this too personally. The map showcase is there to show off your map or for recieving critique and comments. Most of the time, they aren't attacking you personally, even if it sounds rude. The worst thing to do is to lash back at them. Be the bigger person and just ignore it or try to learn from it.

I agree with you that the post is a bit rude, but you shouldn't let it get to you. I hope you keep in mind that not everyone on SEN is like that.

Team Sage = Temple Siege? If so, you're lying to yourself if you truly think that. Unlike a lot of SEN, I play massers every now and then. I also play TS, but not as much as other maps. There is no way a masser can be a) as trigger-complex/skilled as TS, and b) as fun as TS, while remaining a masser.

True confidence does not insist on being noticed.

I've looked over the thread and I can see why you might've felt threatened or compelled to prove yourself early on. However, I must agree that the manner in which you did so was not the most becoming. Maybe you didn't fully understand the rules. Who knows? In a way, one can never really win an argument. They may present better facts, they may prove their opposition wrong, their opposition may admit to being wrong, but being argumentative with someone will not bring them to your side. What you ultimately want is for people to play and enjoy your map, right? The way you conduct yourself in your topic will set the tone of the discussion. Most members of this forum want you to be your best. Really, they do. However if their feedback (even if the feedback itself was not especially sound or positive) is met with patience and an openness to discussion, you'll find that things will progress much more smoothly.

In short, be patient with people and be willing to consider that you might be wrong about some things.

Your not helping...

You're bawwing because you not only got pwnd on how bad your map actually is, but because you can't accept criticism. Probably because we just can't comprehend how revolutionary your mass map is.

You're lucky you didn't post something in the melee section, because I'd really have given you something to cry about.

I was trying to hint at your big head through PM about your issues... but I guess it didn't click.

You gotta tone down your attitude. No offense, but your mapping skills are nothing worth getting cocky about. Most mappers here are more experienced, practiced, and talented than yourself. Flaming them is not needed.

Yous guys gotta stop whining over everything, I mean jesus christ, this is fucking starcraft we're talking about here. Grow some testicles, guys (and ovaries, girls).

Need I remind anyone that WE'RE ON A FUCKING ROCK FLYING THROUGH SPACE?

Edit: And lol @ whoever reported Excalibur's post. He's a global mod, don't you guys realize that he's above everything except the final Moose-or-IP-law? Meaning, due to his global mod status, that he is allowed to decide whether or not his own post is rule-breaking or not, he's one of the people that gets a notification and has the power to deal with it... lol.

Fucking lol'd


That was me. Of course I know. It doesn't mean Excalibur's post wasn't entirely innapropriate. I reported it in hopes that either a) Ex would see that he said something stupid or b) Moose or IP would delete it.

Whatever.

Oh, my bad. I had assumed it was someone new, like perhaps the topic creator, who wasn't aware of that sort of thing.

I'm being a bit off-topic, but I don't think most people, including you, have the mapping skills necessary to be cocky about. In fact, no one should be cocky about their skills; they're playing an eleven year old game.

As for Vanished, you can't possibly come out of the blue and tell us that you have an absolutely revolutionary massing game.

As much as everyone would like to run to the defense of "the community" against an outsider, wouldn't it be more fair to say that in this case, both sides are in the wrong?

SEN has a rather nasty habit of being unreflective as to the standards that it uses in evaluating maps; it is all too common to see people here advocating one specific set of criteria as if they should apply to all maps, when really any attribute of a map is important or necessary only insofar as it contributes to the enjoyment of the map by the targeted group of players-- and that group is not always SEN. A bunker wars map is not supposed to be complex, or original; it's supposed to provide enjoyment for Bunker Wars players on battle.net. Add too much uniqueness or too many advanced features, and players will actually be less happy, because they won't be getting what they joined the game to play. And it is also not the case that aiming for a different set of standards itself makes a map inferior, because there are certainly enough people in non-SEN Starcraft communities for maps that succeed well in meeting different sets of standards to create significant differences in overall happiness. Besides, it seems silly to think that we say that a map is better just because it involved a greater amount of work; if a map appealing very successfully to non-SEN standards just thanks to a few changes to a basic form generates many good games and creates a lot of happiness, then isn't that a better map than some all-new thing with thousands of sophisticated triggers that is only played by a few people, and thus generates only a relatively small amount of happiness? I think it would be justifiable to take offense if a genuine piece of good work receives a lot of unthinking criticism just because it's not "politically correct" by the standards of the local community.

At the same time, there are better ways to resolve disputes than by carrying on at length without getting at the underlying, substantial value issues. Doing so, by definition, does not get to the cause of the problem, and is thus not constructive to its resolution.

He deserved every word. And more, but I was on MSN with Moose and decided I didn't want to cause more of a fuss than our lovely OP.

There's always room for improvement and changes.
May suggestions be good or bad, you still must take them into consideration. You can reject an idea, but know that we're here to improve a map and not bash it.

So you being an arrogant prick is justified because he was acting slightly arrogant? That's a little bit hypocrtical of you.

We should be trying to welcome new members, teach them to play nice and support their map making - WITHOUT being giant douches ourselves.

Here's the situation as I see it:

A new member decided to join the community and post his map. He was met with hostility and naturally retaliated. Moose sent him a well-spoken and appropriate response. <- administrative action should've stopped here. YOU, ex, decided to come into this thread and act like a GIANT DOUCHE, giving a bad name to the staff and members of this website.

And don't even dare fucking delete or edit this post, because you deserved every word.


To the overall problem at hand:

Yes, Vanished is at fault for the way he reacted. But simply put, he should NEVER have been put in a situation where he could have reacted that way. If you've got ideas and concepts you'd like to share with a map-maker, it is more than possible to do so in a constructive, positive manner - and if the map-maker decides to not take your advice or add your ideas, you should respect the map-maker's stance on his own map. If you feel your feedback is being ignored, then provide feedback to someone else. Seriously.

I've noticed something of a trend recently in map production/showcase topics, where any topic that doesn't have reams of info and thousands of screenshots will be spammed with posts like "WTF NOT ENOUGH INFO" or "PROVIDE SCREENIES OR I WON'T PLAY YOUR MAP". This is fucking retarded. Most of the people posting this shit wouldn't have downloaded or played the map at all REGARDLESS of whether there were screenshots. This is stupid. There is no point to this kind of posting. Yossarian put it nicely:


FoxWolf said this:


and he is all too correct.

I'm done talking. Let's do something.

I appreciate everyone's comments, but Mini Moose 2707 didn't reply concerning his spam in my thread. He, as administrator, edited a number of my posts. He also removed a post of mine.

I would like my post to be reposted or have Mini Moose 2707's spam removed from my thread. That's a request. Thank you.

If you had rechecked the thread, you would have found that my post was already removed.

Sounds like you're just looking for others to make a mistake in order to redeem your horrid attitude.

Just admit your fault and move on -don't try to blame anyone else for anything. That's a request. Thank you.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 10 2009, 12:35 am by CecilSunkure. Reason: Ultimoooo