Staredit Network > Forums > Serious Discussion > Topic: Keeping Things Civil
Keeping Things Civil
Jul 11 2009, 6:50 pm
By: Decency  

Jul 11 2009, 6:50 pm Decency Post #1



I read a novel recently, Empire, by Orson Scott Card, which describes a hypothetical second American Civil War. He's been one of if not my favorite author for nearly a decade, and I still find his ideas to resonate strongly with me and felt that I should pass this on. What follows is the afterword of the novel; it really struck me when he described the state of affairs of politics in America. Not many know this, but the United States is literally the ONLY major, developed country in history to have a two-party system, and I feel it's one of the things that inhibits intellectual growth in our country. It was written in 2006 when anti-Bush rhetoric was everywhere, and the election slander was beginning. I've taken out or rearranged a couple of paragraphs relevant to the novel because I doubt any of you have read it, but I think the message is one worth reading.

I'd like to know if you agree that the extremism that Card talks about is actually a serious problem, and whether it could possibly turn into another war.

Quote
Because we haven't had a civil war in the past fourteen decades, people think we can't have one now. Where is the geographic clarity of the Mason-Dixon line? When you look at the red-state blue-state division in the past few elections, you get a false impression. The real division is urban, academic, and high-tech counties versus suburban, rural, and conservative Christian counties. How could such widely scattered "blue" centers and such centerless "red" populations ever act in concert?

Geography aside, however, we have never been so evenly divided with such hateful rhetoric since the years leading up to the Civil War of the 1860s. Because the national media elite are so uniformly progressive, we keep hearing (in the elite media) about the rhetorical excesses of the "extreme right." To hear the same media, there is no "extreme left," just the occasional progressive who says things he or she shouldn't.

But any rational observer has to see that the Left and Right in America are screaming the most vile accusations at each other all the time. We are fully polarized -- if you accept one idea that sounds like it belongs to either the blue or the red, you are assumed -- nay, required -- to espouse the entire rest of the package, even though there is no reason why supporting the war against terrorism should imply you're in favor of banning all abortions and against restricting the availability of firearms; no reason why being in favor of keeping government-imposed limits on the free market should imply you also are in favor of giving legal status to homosexual couples and against building nuclear reactors. These issues are not remotely related, and yet if you hold any of one group's views, you are hated by the other group as if you believed them all; and if you hold most of one group's views, but not all, you are treated as if you were a traitor for deviating even slightly from the party line.

It goes deeper than this, however. A good working definition of fanaticism is that you are so convinced of your views and policies that you are sure anyone who opposes them must either be stupid and deceived or have some ulterior motive. We are today a nation where almost everyone in the public eye displays fanaticism with every utterance.

It is part of human nature to regard as sane those people who share the worldview of the majority of society. Somehow, though, we have managed to divide ourselves into two different, mutually exclusive sanities. The people in each society reinforce each other in madness, believing unsubstantiated ideas that are often contradicted not only by each other but also by whatever objective evidence exists on the subject. Instead of having an ever-adapting civilization-wide consensus reality, we have became a nation of insane people able to see the madness only in the other side.

Does this lead, inevitably, to civil war? Of course not -- though it's hardly conducive to stable government or the long-term continuation of democracy. What inevitably arises from such division is the attempt by one group, utterly convinced of its rectitude, to use all coercive forces available to stamp out the opposing views.

Such an effort is, of course, a confession of madness. Suppression of other people's beliefs by force only comes about when you are deeply afraid that your own beliefs are wrong and you are desperate to keep anyone from challenging them. Oh, you may come up with rhetoric about how you are suppressing them for their own good or for the good of others, but people who are confident of their beliefs are content merely to offer and teach, not compel.

The impulse toward coercion takes whatever forms are available. In academia, it consists of the denial of degrees, jobs, or tenure to people with nonconformist opinions. Ironically, the people who are most relentless in eliminating competing ideas congratulate themselves on their tolerance and diversity. In most situations, it is less formal, consisting of shunning -- but the shunning usually has teeth in it. It has happened to me, repeatedly, from both the Left and the Right. It is never enough to disagree with me -- I must be banned from speaking at a particular convention or campus; my writings should be boycotted; anything that will punish me for my noncompliance and, if possible, impoverish me and my family.

So virulent are these responses -- again, from both the Left and the Right -- that I believe it is only a short step to the attempt to use the power of the state to enforce one's views. On the right we have attempts to use the government to punish flag burners and to enforce state-sponsored praying. On the left, we have a ban on free speech and peaceable public assembly in front of abortion clinics and the attempt to use the power of the state to force the acceptance of homosexual relationships as equal to marriages. Each side feels absolutely justified in compelling others to accept their views.

It is puritanism, not in its separatist form, desiring to live by themselves by their own rules, but in its Cromwellian form, using the power of the state to enforce the dicta of one group throughout the wider society, by force rather than persuasion.

This despite the historical fact that the civilization that has created more prosperity and freedom for more people than ever before is one based on tolerance and pluralism, and that attempts to force one religion (theistic or atheistic) on the rest of a nation or the world inevitably lead to misery, poverty, and, usually, conflict.

Yet we seem only able to see the negative effects of coercion caused by the other team. Progressives see the danger of allowing fanatical religions (which, by some definitions, means "all of them") to have control of government -- they need only point to Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, or, in a more general and milder sense, the entire Muslim world, which is oppressed precisely to the degree that Islam is enforced as the state religion.

Conservatives, on the other hand, see the danger of allowing fanatical atheistic religions to have control of government, pointing to Nazi Germany and all Communist nations as obvious examples of political utopianism run amok.

Yet neither side can see any connection between their own fanaticism and the historical examples that might apply to them. People insisting on a Christian America simply cannot comprehend that others view them as the Taliban-in-waiting; those who insist on progressive exclusivism in America are outraged at any comparison between them and Communist totalitarianism. Even as they shun or fire or deny tenure to those who disagree with them, everybody thinks it's the other guy who would be the oppressor, while our side would simply "set things to rights."

Rarely do people set out to start a civil war. Invariably, when such wars break out both sides consider themselves to be the aggrieved ones. Right now in America, even though the Left has control of all the institutions of cultural power and prestige -- universities, movies, literary publishing, mainstream journalism-- as well as the federal courts, they feel themselves oppressed and threatened by traditional religion and conservatism. And even though the Right controls both houses of Congress and the presidency, as well as having ample outlets for their views in nontraditional media and an ever-increasing dominance over American religious and economic life, they feel themselves oppressed and threatened by the cultural dominance of the Left.

And they are threatened, just as they are also threatening, because nobody is willing to accept the simple idea that someone can disagree with their group and still be a decent human being worthy of respect.

Can it lead to war?

Very simply, yes. The moment one group feels itself so aggrieved that it uses either its own weapons or the weapons of the state to "prevent" the other side from bringing about its supposed "evil" designs, then that other side will have no choice but to take up arms against them. Both sides will believe the other to be the instigator.

The vast majority of people will be horrified -- but they will also be mobilized whether they like it or not.

It's the lesson of Yugoslavia and Rwanda. If you were a Tutsi just before the Rwandan holocaust who did not hate Hutus, who married a Hutu, who hired Hutus or taught school to Hutu students, it would not have stopped Hutus from taking machetes to you and your family. You would have had only two choices: to die or to take up arms against Hutus, whether you had previously hated them or not.

But it went further. Knowing they were doing a great evil, the Hutus who conducted the programs also killed any Hutus who were "disloyal" enough to try to oppose taking up arms.

Likewise in Yugoslavia. For political gain, Serbian leaders in the post-Tito government maintained a drumbeat of Serbian manifest-destiny propaganda, which openly demonized Croatian and Muslim people as a threat to good Serbs. When Serbs in Bosnia took up arms to "protect themselves" from being ruled by a Muslim majority -- and were sponsored and backed by the Serbian government -- what choice did a Bosnian Muslim have but to take up arms in self-defense? Thus both sides claimed to be acting in self-defense, and in short order, they were.

And as both Rwanda and Bosnia proved, clear geographical divisions are not required in order to have brutal, bloody civil wars. All that is required is that both sides come to believe that if they do not take up arms, the other side will destroy them.

In America today, we are complacent in our belief that it can't happen here. We forget that America is not an ethnic nation, where ancient ties of blood can bind people together despite differences. We are created by ideology; ideas are our only connection. And because today we have discarded the free marketplace of ideas and have polarized ourselves into two equally insane ideologies, so that each side can, with perfect accuracy, brand the other side as madmen, we are ripe for that next step, to take preventive action to keep the other side from seizing power and oppressing our side.

We live in a time when people like me, who do not wish to choose either camp's ridiculous, inconsistent, unrelated ideology, are being forced to choose -- and to take one whole absurd package or the other.

We live in a time when moderates are treated worse than extremists, being punished as if they were more fanatical than the actual fanatics.

We live in a time when lies are preferred to the truth and truths are called lies, when opponents are assumed to have the worst conceivable motives and treated accordingly, and when we reach immediately for coercion without even bothering to find out what those who disagree with us are actually saying.

In short, we are creating for ourselves a new dark age -- the darkness of blinders we voluntarily wear, and which, if we do not take them off and see each other as human beings with legitimate, virtuous concerns, will lead us to tragedies whose cost we will bear for generations.

Or, maybe, we can just calm down and stop thinking that our own ideas are so precious that we must never give an inch to accommodate the heartfelt beliefs of others.

The examples are -- or should be -- obvious. That we are generally oblivious to the excesses of our own side merely demonstrates how close we already are to a paroxysm of self-destruction.

We are waiting for Fort Sumter.

I hope it doesn't come.




None.

Jul 25 2009, 11:59 pm CaptainWill Post #2



Well, that was a bit long even for me, but I want to point out that Britain has had an effective two-party system for longer than the US. I agree that it can stifle progress, perhaps more so in the US as you have always had the same two parties, whereas the UK's have changed from Tory-Whig in the 18th century to Tory-Liberal, Conservative-Liberal, Conservative-Labour.



None.

Jul 26 2009, 4:12 pm Decency Post #3



I figured the length was the reason that replies were so scarce, but I felt it was worth sharing regardless.

The UK may have two main parties, but the United States really only has two parties, period. I think there might be, at most, one or two congressmen in the Senate and House that are in another party, and a few that call themselves independents. There are no other options, where you have Lib Dem, Dem Union, SNP, etc.

Hopefully the US will grow 3rd parties in the future, but the monopoly we have now is disheartening. As OSC pointed out, if you don't believe in the entirety of a party's beliefs, you won't get anywhere. As an Independent, that's obnoxious to me.



None.

Jul 26 2009, 8:17 pm CaptainWill Post #4



I believe that the less polarised politics becomes (it has been becoming less and less so since the end of the Cold War), the more independents such as yourself will challenge the two-party hegemony. I can see why you have such great concerns over having your own opinions heard in a system where people are expected to accept one set of policies or another - Option A or Option B.



None.

Jul 27 2009, 2:01 am Zell. Post #5



The post is interesting, and well organized. Let me summarize. Other countries are divided by ethnicity, but the U.S. is well mixed in ancestry. The thing that separates Americans is their beliefs. This would not be a problem if people weren't fanatical about their ideas. When a group is extreme in their beliefs, they feel threatened by any other ideas because it makes you deeply afraid you are wrong. The result of this tension is the effort to force your beliefs on others. At this point both sides believe the other one is the instigator, trying to spread false ideas. Thus, both teams will claim to act in self defense. Now, is this war fought with guns? Maybe. Maybe not. The point is, it could happen.
Quote
because nobody is willing to accept the simple idea that someone can disagree with their group and still be a decent human being worthy of respect.




None.

Jul 27 2009, 3:04 am Vrael Post #6



The language employed in that passage is not descriptive of the actual state of things in the United States. It uses frequent generalizations and dramatic language to inspire a greater sense of unrest than actually exists. For example, "But any rational observer has to see that the Left and Right in America are screaming the most vile accusations at each other all the time." The structure employed here forces the reader to either be "a rational observer" and agree with the viewpoint of the author, or be "unrational" in order to disagree, regardless of the actual validity of the viewpoint. The passage gives no citations, no real-life examples of any of these "vile accusations" or "denial of degrees" or "hateful rhetoric."

The writing style employed here would fit well into the context of the novel which you pulled it from, because it isn't meant to be rational, it's completely emotional, and in a state of such civil unrest the emotions of hate and fear appear to be more prominent in influencing a decision than rational thought may be. However, in reference to the actual state of the United States, I think some real-life examples are in order.

Also, when you folks say that "Americans are separated by beliefs," grow up. I'm not even the most worldly person alive, but I've seen my fair share of racism, class differences, snobby assholes, ect.



None.

Jul 30 2009, 4:31 pm Hercanic Post #7

STF mod creator, Modcrafters.com admin, CampaignCreations.org staff

Orson disappoints me with that "atheist religion" nonsense. So many religious folks spout that absurd argument. Atheists are just people, who happen to share only one thing in common -- lack of belief in deities. "There is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere." People can be atheists without even knowing it, having never given thought to belief in gods they are implicitly atheists. You cannot belong to any religion, on a fundamental level, without knowing it.

As for equating communism to atheism, first off, communist governments have never been communist (true communism lacks any government). It was an appealing ideal to the common man. Off their backs, the word was used to garner power for a tyranny, abuse without checks or balances. Their removal of religion is less about atheism and more about uprooting challenges to their power and monopolizing control of the people. Just another word of convenience.

To be fair, the name of God, and other religious convictions, has likewise been abused, but there is one pivotal and stifling difference. When you accept a two-thousand year old book as divinely-written, irrefutable and infallible, you are truly hostage to its contents.


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Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Jul 30 2009, 8:56 pm by Hercanic.




Jul 30 2009, 8:32 pm ClansAreForGays Post #8



You took that passage way out of context hercanic.




Jul 30 2009, 9:02 pm Hercanic Post #9

STF mod creator, Modcrafters.com admin, CampaignCreations.org staff

It is the conclusion of a parable spoken by Jesus. However, the heart of this discussion isn't the Bible (I intended to cite from other religious texts as well, but got lazy), so I've opted to remove the passage and let the core of my point stand.

For those curious about what CAFG is responding to, it's the following: ("But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Jesus, Luke 19:22-27) This was noted after my closing with "hostage to its contents."



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Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 30 2009, 9:08 pm by Hercanic.




Aug 2 2009, 11:24 am Centreri Post #10

Relatively ancient and inactive

As exciting as it all sounds, I really doubt it. Any civil war would have to start at the government, because the government has too much control to allow a war otherwise. I have a low opinion of a large portion of the government, seeing as their main job is babbling what they percieve most people want to hear, but I don't see it happening.



None.

Aug 2 2009, 2:47 pm Decency Post #11



Yeah, I'd agree that a civil war itself is very unlikely, but if the political extremism intensifies to an assassination, then a retaliation, it's not entirely out of the question.



None.

Aug 4 2009, 3:56 am Vrael Post #12



Quote from name:FaZ-
Yeah, I'd agree that a civil war itself is very unlikely, but if the political extremism intensifies to an assassination, then a retaliation, it's not entirely out of the question.
As much as people will argue one side or another, if you ask someone from the U.S what country they're from, chances are they will say America. The point of this is that people are not so divided as this passage claims. People still think of America as a single country, their country, and as much as they might hate the other side of the spectrum for whatever reasons, they would still die fighting side by side against another country before they'd die fighting against the other half of their country. This at least, is what I see in the U.S. still.

Take a case like Taiwan and China however for contrast. Taiwanese people may consider themselves not a part of China while China considers Taiwan a part of their country, or in the American civil war, the south thought of itself as apart from the United States. I don't really think this mindset exists in the modern U.S.



None.

Aug 4 2009, 4:26 pm Decency Post #13



You're missing the point, though. It's not about location, it's about ideas. Asking "what country are you from" is thus completely the wrong question. If you ask Americans how they feel about their government, though, you'll find many not quite so cohesive answers.



None.

Aug 4 2009, 5:27 pm Vrael Post #14



Quote from name:FaZ-
You're missing the point, though. It's not about location, it's about ideas. Asking "what country are you from" is thus completely the wrong question. If you ask Americans how they feel about their government, though, you'll find many not quite so cohesive answers.
It's about many things, including both location and ideas. "What country are you from" is one of many correct questions, and I completely agree about americans feelings about their government lol. For example, are you really willing to fight a war against your own countrymen? Would you kill a man because he supports one side of the abortion argument and you support another? Is congress going to declare a civil war? No. The only avenue I could think of for a civil war to really have a good chance of happening nowadays, is if the President uses his executive authority to order military force used against congress and the supreme court or something wild like that. Even then I doubt the war would be "Republicans vs. Democrats" anyway. I would agree that any sort of extremism, political extremism included, is bad for the country, but I also don't see the mind set apparent in the average american needed for an ideological war.



None.

Aug 4 2009, 7:21 pm Decency Post #15



If you read the original essay, not sure if you have or not, the author points out that many times sides are forced because the average person acts that he believes that he's acting in self defense to protect himself, and in short order, both sides are.

Would I kill a countryman? If he's trying to kill me, absolutely.



None.

Aug 5 2009, 5:22 pm Hercanic Post #16

STF mod creator, Modcrafters.com admin, CampaignCreations.org staff

A civil war is always a possible future, in the broader sense of the word, given enough time and a continued trend of polarization. Not today, not likely in five or ten years, but possible.

History is filled with people killing each other for less. We may dismiss them as uneducated or backward, unhinged societies, but they found ways to rationalize that are well within our own means to do again. Human psychology predicts it. We tend to base our decisions not on the decision alone, but on what we've already done. A sudden civil war seems impossible, and it is. If it happens, it will be a gradual build-up that will only seem sudden in hindsight.

Putting things in comedic perspective (which is probably the most effective way to argue a controversial point, when done right), here's a video that illustrates the demonization of each political party by the other: If the other party wins, by CollegeHumor - "One thing's for sure: the person you disagree with is going to ruin the country."




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