I beg to differ.

Example, one crazy ass Dark_Marine playing as mutant.

idk why they do logically either but if you have ever played lurker defense it happens. I have seen some use the strategy to stack tons and tons of lurkers. as soon as the first target dies they aqquire different targets. this as you said makes no sense.

Since when is the Mutant's L3 stacked lurkers?

Since the very first version.

The summoner's ling cap should increase with every spell level as well. 6-8-10-UNLIMITED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(if lings go back to +1, unlimited is no joke.)

I think i was able to transform while using Lv4 as mech, but this was in a previous version. I think it was M3 and not M5.

In response to everything, I have a comment about dm. I think dm is really well balanced except for level 4 and I'll say why. When dm uses l4, she usually surrounds the opponent. Also, it seems that volts l3 and warriors l3 don't stop the broods, as far as I've experienced. Also, after the surround, dm can easily curse and kill whomever is surrounded. Would it be possible/fair to stop the l2/l4 combo? Or maybe make l2 only ally to enemy heroes? Like I said, this is THE ONLY problem I see in dm.

Edit: Also, I was maybe playing an old v, but is warriors l3 supposed to kill archers companions? Because last time I tried, it didn't work. I don't know if it was fixed.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 18 2009, 2:39 am by ShredderIV.

I have a request concerning the medic. I think a way for it to get stronger is for its disable to be able to wear off any effects such as assasin's l3 and mutants l1. This could give medic a bit of a boost. One time, I was playing a 1v1 against a dt (all others died). At night, I could only watch my buldings getting shredded. Even if i disabled him, he would still carry on his work with the pylon/cannons. I found this a bit annoying. Making disable wear off the effects of long term effects would help it be more effective against many heroes.

This is a good idea, but we could also make the L3 remove any stuns of nearby allis and the medic, aswell as lifting any curses.

It's only Medic's Lv3 which is being considered too weak to keep, and that is not my view because I believe there are plenty builds that benefit from a LM feeding you mana.

Well I really like the idea of medic being able to remove stuns and curses. It fits her role.

Clans, I agree that feeding someone mana could be useful, but why bother feeding someone mana if you can heal them and yourself to full life for 40 more? Then who cares what spells they can cast, you can just run through/over everything. Yoshi's suggestion makes Disable even more powerful, but with the "Rally" a more useful spell, swapping them isn't as big of a deal. I just can't see someone spending 80 mana to save 3 seconds of stuntime unless they're about to die. I also can't see one spell doing so many things (Rally, re: medics->marines) so here's a slightly modified bit of what I posted above:
L1: Medic summon: If you have Medics nearby, they are turned into Marines. A medic still spawns either way, though.
L2: Rally: Remove stuns/Negative effects from self and allies, +50 mana for nearby allies.
L3: Disable: 30 Second Disable, remove long term benefit spells, set to 0 Energy (Okay, the stun was probably a bit much. =p)
L4: Heal: Medic Full, Nearby allies to level +5 civs.

An all around powerful L2 and a situationally powerful L3 would definitely increase the balance of the medic. In response to Iceman, if it's an added effect that is offensive in nature but doesn't remove a support spell, the medic isn't getting any less supportive. That's why I kept the prior spells both in play.

Clans I can agree most of what you said about my suggestions is at least a valid complaint, but these two I don't:
You want to make every summoner play exactly the same game every time, and yet you remove the option of even a non-standard build. The L2/L3 upgrades are decent solutions, but that just gives the summoner NO extra options. He can't even go out of base reliant on L3, anymore. Just because it's fun and balanced with just an L1+mana spam doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. I am not opposed to combining the two solutions, however. L2 can give lings speed AND make Broodlings. That will ensure that the summoner levels up spells, anyway.


Also, you said the point of the LM is that it's slow and difficult to move around. Well, if it wasn't for abusing reaver splash and storm to teamkill, because of that weakness this character would be absolutely HORRIBLE in comparison to others. It is by far the slowest and has a tiny ranged attack, so it can't even hit under swarm. PARTIALLY removing the weakness of speed by giving it teleport allows it to leave cannons and play a useful role in a Temple Siege game before the 20 minute mark. That's my goal with the character, to make it similar to the others so it can be useful, rather than just ignored or avoided for the entire game. Nothing can face a late-game LM except a Medic, but early game it's toast if it moves into the map without a teammate. I think the teleport->L1 combo WILL be enough to make players level ground weapons, and the fact that Reavers are at L3 will make them less leveled. There's the balance. A godly Wall of Light + Reaver transform as L4 would increase that balance. That would be a LM that I would want to play, because you could take chances and do something besides kill spawns.

As for the Mech getting Vulture Speed at L3, that's just dumb. Then I'll be upgrading to my tank to be able to use my Vulture better...? I really haven't seen any solutions that even hint at balancing this character besides the Machine Shop or putting Vulture at L3. And I'd really prefer that the Vulture not be L3, because I die enough early game as a slow Goliath trying to be useful. Basically, if I get to Vulture and 7 damage upgrades without dying, I have a HUGE advantage. Mech is very weak to 2v1's early game and weak if you can stun a Vulture without mana. That's it, so that was my fix.

Archer: Well, I envisioned that this character be a damage one, but I disagree that having damage spells would be an issue. The L4 is mostly a building killer or someone who is stunlocked, so that's fine. The L3 I pictured being used if you were sniping someone, if someone was stunned, etc. Making it a machine-gun cast also means you can't target anything with it, and it loses that effect. The Archer tag-along game is just dull, so by removing the huge power of L1 and giving it some decent late-game PK options, that would have indirectly been fixed. I still think 27+3 is OP for the L1 mutas, I'm working on getting semi-decent as an Archer right now so I can prove it to people.

Moose's (UU's) solution as a precast for Mutant L3 should be perfect, so no need for another nerf there.

As for the Warrior/Volt comparison, I can see it. The difference is that the Warrior is more offensive and the Volt is defensive support, due to their speed and ease of escape. The Volt has more options if it goes huge mana and L4, simply by nature of the L3->L4 combo. Maybe simply increasing the Warrior's L2 damage plus his shields would be fair as an HP nerf. Either way, I think everyone so far has agreed the Warrior has too much damned life.

With the Drone->Guardian change, my suggestion for player owned detection is to allow Drone purchasing for vespene. At 25 mana per drone, free hatchery, 25 for a sunken/spore, you have base detection and swarm protection available if you want it. Adding expensive (100 mana) nyduses as well would be a REALLY interesting feature that could potentially pan out. If your opponents are sitting in their base, that's one way to increase the effects of having map control.


On the whole, I'm surprised with what was agreed with and what hasn't been. I personally thought the most "duh" feature was the Machine Shop and that the Medic changes would be ridiculed, but the opposite has been true. I'm excited for the next version, even just with what has found mostly consensus.

Can you make it so that lifting the engineering bay doesn't destroy it?

first of all, to the comment above me, i'm not even gonna say...

Second, I take back earlier comments about dms l4. I actually think it might be fair to give broods +2 ups. Because of armor, other heroes can easily counter it, since armor ups cost a lot less than attack ups for the dm. This way, even with curse, it is fairly easy to counter a dms l4.

I assure you the Medic is NOT weak if they know how to play it. Why would you even think about them getting MORE benefits from disable when it already renders most of the heroes useless (Summoner, Archer L3 spam, and Full damage Warrior excluded). By the time they have 300 mana its game probably more then half the time. (Yet we justify nerfing the marine to make him NOT able to win games by himself, unless hes really good naturally). I know its counterable, but how many people do you see building battle tanks? Its rare I must say.

So yea, FH in all honestly can be a bit OP, only 180 exp into the game and you can pretty much bet if the medic gets 2 player kills early, they have it by Day 2.

I think FH shouldnt heal allies unless it detects a double cast (one dt still up there when the origional spell goes off) 240 mana seams like a fair price for imortality doesnt it?

Did I forget to mention how easy it is to make this 'Medic' do 100 damage to infantry and volt? If you fight any mana class such as LM or an assult or rine that goes mana, you kill him in 8 shots or less. I understand it sucks against large units but damn, its a team game, not 1 shot kill hardcore mode.

Dont even THINk about suggestting additions to this already powerful class.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Apr 20 2009, 10:15 am by Dark_Marine.

Hi guys.. So in respond to some stuff said here…
I disagree with the LM’s teleport because it is supposed to be a glass cannon… If it is made to be similar to the other chars, then it wouldn’t be as fun to play. Many people like the way it has been done. It has its weaknesses, but they play against it as they feel that its strength can outweight its weaknesses.

I disagree with the Mech’s Machine shop build solely because of me putting wraiths for its new L2 and L4… With the wraiths, the mech has enough choices to make, and don’t need more choices… For moose’s version, the machine shop may be a good idea

I disagree with your vision of the Archer… as I’ve replaced that with the Phantom .. It was never my vision for the archer to be PvP. However, I inputted the phantom partly because I thought it would be cool, and partly because you guys have made it clear that TS was lacking a good ranged PvP hero.

I disagree with rally because, as I’ve said, it isn’t the right theme… Currently, this is what I have done with the medic:
L3 will increase allies’ mana by 50, and will have their mana regain speed x2 for 40 seconds.
L4 will full heal the medic, but only heal allies by their level +20% more HP
As a side note, the v1.5 version that’s been circulating should have the medic’s L3 nullifying all spell effects already, which includes curses and paralysis. At the moment, Medic’s L3 does not affect foes that are near it. Two things could be added in that case, one being a mana drain, two being removing the enemies’ advantageous spell effects (such as Chaos Mutation, SuperCharge.. Burrowing… and maybe.. MAYBE.. Remove spells that are in their pre-spell effects (this’d take some work to do… maybe… )
Also, since this is moosey’s, these ideas aren’t implemented here… but I’m saying it so you guys can think about it.

I may be releasing the v1.5 beta again since there has been many many changes and I really do need some discussion in balancing it…. I’ll keep u guys posted there…
As for moose.. I think he ought to be busy fixing SEN’s bugs >:C .. I can’t repost on threads in which I’ve started or I have posted on or something like that.. UGH it’s so annoying

Just please watch this replay (focus on the LM) and read the conversation between me and White-Fox that starts at 13:00. If that doesn't convince you that the LM is a poorly designed character, I don't know what could. Note that his team hasn't even moved their spawn direction in order to take full advantage of splash, and he still blows by us with ease, despite my harassment.

Link: http://www.mediafire.com/?xloapuj1yy2

Unholy, I've been holding this back for a while: While the idea that every class has a certain "niche" may be sentimental, rigid conformity to it will hold back a class' evolution and by extension be detrimental to the game.

Maybe...

But the teleporting spell just won't work...
Being able to teleport around will bump its reavers to L3. With that, it'll be hard for the Light mage to do any damage to heroes without risking with the L1... Knowing that the only choice for the Lm would be to escape, people will be more aggressive, and LM's only choice would be run away until he gets his L3 for reavers.. But even then, 80 mana is a lot, and for a spell that would not right away target heroes, but also target spawns, LM would be hard pressed to get any kills w/ it.

I know what needs to be changed... But as I've explained before, if the change decreases the gameplay, I won't do it... However, if there's a way to increase the gameplay AND fix the current problem, I'd do it.

I feel that the teleportation and the rallying will effectively ruin the character's uniqueness and make the game less fun, Which is far more detrimental to the game than imbalances :S...

I wasn't making and haven't made any argument for or against changes to LM.