Staredit Network > Forums > Serious Discussion > Topic: Free Will
Free Will
Mar 3 2009, 2:00 pm
By: BeDazed
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Mar 23 2009, 3:10 am JaBoK Post #41



Vrael, the point is that it doesn't make rational sense, which is why you need to drop some of the premises you're using in your argument. The fact is that the only reason a single particle can diffract is that it exists in many places at once, as a wave. The uncertainty principle simply states that this is ture, and that we can measure the area of potentials that the electron takes based on its velocity. It also states that when we observe a particle, we observe it in one area, and thus change it, by forcing it to take on a position. The uncertainty principle also asserts that the probabilities are fair in the long run.

If you try to say that the uncertainty principle is wrong and that the particle just has some undisclosed location, then the double slit experiment would not work, because in order to diffract the particle literally had to occupy every spot in its uncertainty area. When we observe it, it acts as a particle that is only in one place at one time. The result is the uncertainty principle.

The only explanation must be one that treats particles as fields of probability that only become determined when observed, and that's pretty narrow.



None.

Mar 23 2009, 5:02 am A_of-s_t Post #42

aka idmontie

Quote from name:Richard Nixons Head
Quote from A_of-s_t
If free will exists, then the universe is not predictable, therefore, it is chaotic and random
If free will does not exist, the universe is predictable, therefore, it can be plotted and future events can be predicted with absolute certainty.

It's quantum mechanics versus chaos theory (or classical physics, what ever you want to choose).

Chaos != randomness. Chaos theory simply states that something perfectly rational and ordered can seem random because the events that determine how it behaves are so vast, they are unrecognisable at a glance.

There's no certainty in quantum mechanics.

Also, my thoughts on people bugging out about free will: If we had no free will, we'd know, because there wouldn't be any exoteric nutjobs.
That was the point... chaos theory says that even random looking events are not random, and quantum mechanics is pure randomness. Hence the use of the word "versus."



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Mar 23 2009, 5:20 am Vrael Post #43



If the uncertainty principle is wrong, the double slit experiment would still work. I'm not refuting that. Take classical mechanics for instance. Back in the day, people thought they were precisely correct, a box thrown at some angle alpha with some initial velocity would end up in position (x,y,z) at time t. Turns out that was wrong though, some guy named Einstein came along and added relativity into the equation. This is precisely what I'm saying is going on here: something is missing, and the uncertainty principle is off. Incidentally, I think Einstein agrees with me:

Quote from name: Einstein in a letter to Schrödinger from You">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dingers_Cat]You are the only contemporary physicist, besides Laue, who sees that one cannot get around the assumption of reality—if only one is honest. Most of them simply do not see what sort of risky game they are playing with reality—reality as something independent of what is experimentally established. Their interpretation is, however, refuted most elegantly by your system of radioactive atom + amplifier + charge of gun powder + cat in a box, in which the psi-function of the system contains both the cat alive and blown to bits. Nobody really doubts that the presence or absence of the cat is something independent of the act of observation.

What happens to the universe if things don't have a defined state? For these particles to resolve into some defined state, they must have had some prior state, otherwise they wouldn't exist at all. If we fly out into the universe, things aren't simply going to resolve around us like the fog of war dissapears for units in starcraft (LOL@COMPARISON, I AM CLEARLY SUCH A NERD), things will still have some position and momentum and energy and all those other physical properties. The electron in the experiment had to go through the slit at some point, whether it went through one or both. Schrödinger's cat is going to come out alive or dead, and the atom they put in the box to test either will decay or won't decay, and it had to have had a certain number of electrons on it in the first place.

Furthermore:
Quote from JaBoK
Vrael, the point is that it doesn't make rational sense, which is why you need to drop some of the premises you're using in your argument.
If something doesn't make rational sense, then it cannot be argued at all, neither for nor against it.

Again I ask,
Quote from Vrael
the observer class: is it limited to humans? Are there aliens who could be observers? Can a star or some other inanimate object act as an observer, can schrödinger's cat in the death-box be an observer?
The physical act of a human being looking at the experiment clearly didn't affect it, since the electrons acted like waves. Some guy sticking his nose down by the slits isn't going to make the electrons in the diffraction experiment act like tennis balls. I would look to the machines set up to test it, since that is the obvious difference in the two outcomes. It really isn't "observation" that changes the outcome, otherwise the guy with his nose down in front of the slits would be able to change the outcome. This is simply a phenomenon we have not explicitly defined yet.



None.

Mar 23 2009, 7:40 am JaBoK Post #44



We do know for sure that some other force we have named to be the observer is responsible for this. Here's an article that might help a bit, and a quote that's relevant:
Quote
We finally re-emphasize that our brief sketches of how various interpretations relate to the assumptions of the Experimenter is an aside to our main argument: i.e., since the involvement of the observer arises directly from theory-neutral experimental observations logically prior to the theory, no interpretation of the quantum theory can resolve the measurement problem by removing the observer, as is possible in classical physics. The number of interpretations in current contention addressing the measurement problem emphasizes that a resolution still eludes us.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/quant-ph/papers/0011/0011086.pdf

Just read up on that one, as it's far more relevant than anything Einstein wrote on the subject. The fact is that in writing that, Einstein was attacking the only thing that didn't fit with his theories, and in doing so, he was quite simply wrong, as we would find out many years after his death. The facts as we know now state that reality is established by observers, and that without observers, the universe exists as probabilities. That's new, and that's far past Einstein's limited view of reality. We do know that the electron went through the slits, because the probability was not scattered enough to send it anywhere but certain places, but we have proven that it passed through both slits when unobserved, yet was only one particle. That in itself proves Einstein wrong, without even going any further. The uncertainty principle has held true through all experiments with it, and is not some far-fetched theory to explain other phenomena. Momentum, energy and position are absolutely uncertain until observed, and you will not be able to cite evidence to the contrary no matter how much outdated physics you pull out.

To address your question about the observer, I honestly have no idea, and in that, most physicists would agree. We know that we can only affect the outcome of the double slit experiment if we measure in such a way as to narrow the electron down to a space small enough to show us which slit it went through. You can try to brush this off as machines that test it, but the fact remains that no force is able to make a wave act as a particle in the way that what we see to be observation does. It is difficult to find out what exactly is going on, but we do know that as soon as we can find out something to a certain degree, data becomes available to that degree and to no other degree. When the data becomes enough to alter the course of an experiment, we have proof. The proof is sound and relatively irrefutable, so the only discussion should be the explanation for it. So far, many attempts have been made to show that the measuring devices have forced the electron through a single slit, but nothing has come up, and there exists no explanation short of this elusive observer entity. You're not the first person to have thought that and been proven wrong, and there's a reason we still refer to the observer in discussions on Quantum Theory. The phenomenon we have not explicitly defined is called the observer, and the only thing that is constant is that it only happens when we try to find data.



None.

Mar 23 2009, 5:09 pm ClansAreForGays Post #45



Quote from Vrael
The physical act of a human being looking at the experiment clearly didn't affect it, since the electrons acted like waves. Some guy sticking his nose down by the slits isn't going to make the electrons in the diffraction experiment act like tennis balls. I would look to the machines set up to test it, since that is the obvious difference in the two outcomes. It really isn't "observation" that changes the outcome, otherwise the guy with his nose down in front of the slits would be able to change the outcome. This is simply a phenomenon we have not explicitly defined yet.
After reading this I'm starting to think you haven't really comprehended quantum theory when you thought you did. You are no better than a creationist arguing against evolution when you say things like empty buildings can't burn down if the uncertainty principle is true. While Jabok is saying that it is true because of the double slit experiment, you are saying it isn't because it sounds too crazy. Like your example with Schod.'s Cat, the mind boggling possibility that the cat could be both dead and alive does not make it any less true.
Here is a very simple(somewhat kiddie) video that explains it just to make sure we are all on the same page (and to catch anyone else reading along up that didn't have the will to read through Jabok's wall of text)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc




Mar 24 2009, 1:48 am Vrael Post #46



Quote from ClansAreForGays
After reading this I'm starting to think you haven't really comprehended quantum theory when you thought you did. You are no better than a creationist arguing against evolution when you say things like empty buildings can't burn down if the uncertainty principle is true. While Jabok is saying that it is true because of the double slit experiment, you are saying it isn't because it sounds too crazy. Like your example with Schod.'s Cat, the mind boggling possibility that the cat could be both dead and alive does not make it any less true. Here is a very simple(somewhat kiddie) video that explains it just to make sure we are all on the same page (and to catch anyone else reading along up that didn't have the will to read through Jabok's wall of text) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
I understand it fine, CAFG, and I'll say again: I'm not refuting the results of the physical experiments. What I'm saying is that while the uncertainty principle is a useful tool for performing calculations and theorizing, it does not actually reflect reality. I am of the same opinion as Einstein: quantum physics is an incomplete physical model, just as classical mechanics was an incomplete physical model. I don't plan on simply reiterating what I've been saying all along however except in this post and that only to hopefully explain as clear as I can what my point is, CAFG.

The comparison to a creationist is silly. What I believe you meant to compare me to was the stereotype of a closed-minded christian who is blind and unwilling to accept the truth despite anything he/she is told because it may conflict with their faith, an that's a low blow man, that hurts. Fortunately in this respect I am not hindered by any faith or desire for things to be a certain way; I know reality will be real whether or not I want it to be, so the comparison is faulty: I'm simply calling it as I see it. Nor am I saying the model isn't true because it "sounds too crazy." I'm saying the model isn't true because it fails to conform to the principles of physics we have observed elsewhere. Take for example, the "observer" force. No one has really defined it, all we really know is that when we measure which slit the electron is going through, it acts differently. In essence, we know the effect, but not the cause, the what but not the why. This is why I doubt the theory. If some physicist comes out with precise data and a solid theory on how it works, of course I would accept it, but such is not the case right now.

Here's another quote from the EPR paper that reflects my viewpoint:
Quote from name:http://prola.aps.org/pdf/PR/v47/i10/p777_1 A. Einstein, B. Podolsky and N. Rosen
Any serious consideration of a physical theory must take into account the distinction between the objective reality, which is independant of any theory, and the physical concepts with which the theory operates. These concepts are intended to correspond with the objective reality, and by means of these concepts we picture this reality to ourselves.

I acknowledge that I could be wrong. The theory could truly reflect the objective reality, but until more evidence is presented the case seems weak to me. Perhaps on the other hand the simple thought experiments I propose wouldn't be enough to destroy a theory, but in this "case" the burden of proof lies upon the supporters of the theory (unless of course no other theory exists), so I see my points as valid. That is to say, if they are going to establish the uncertainty principle as absolute truth, then they had better have an absolute proof (or at least reasonably close to absolute, I figure 99% would be fair, somewhere in that ballpark, you get the idea). I've never seen an apple fall up, you know? Nor have I seen an object in many states at once; though I realize the probability of seeing that is approximately zero.

Relating back to the topic at hand however, if these probabilities of affecting real-life actions are truly insignifigant, then how does quantum theory have any affect on determinism and free will? It was mentioned that the electrons in the brain would all fire off in different positions, but if the probability of them firing a different way in the same scenario is so small that it essentially won't happen, then things pretty much remain determined. Granted, it wouldn't be true determinism, but such infinitesimally small probabilities of things occurring a separate way really isn't much different from things being exactly determined, and the majority of folks wouldn't have free will anyway. With a simple example, let's say bob likes apples and oranges according to Apple(50.1), Orange(49.9). By some magic power we have the ability to perfectly replicate a situation where we have the same exact bob choosing to eat an apple or an orange. Now, the first time bob picks the apple, based on the firing of electrons in his brain making a decision in a certain manner. However, the second time, if the effect that the uncertainty principle when taken at the macro level is less than .1% of the decision, (and many of these probabilities are ridiculously small I'd imagine at the quantum level of affecting a large object), bob will still choose the apple every time, and as such the same outcome will occur every time, with possible, but probably negligible, exception. In this way, he really wouldn't have "free will" anyway.



None.

Mar 24 2009, 7:08 am JaBoK Post #47



Firstly, you say that the uncertainty principle is a calculation tool, which is not by any means true. The whole point of the double slit experiment was that it showed that while something is under the effects of the uncertainty principle, it is able to exist in two places at once, in case you missed that part. This means that the uncertainty principle is more than just a convenient uncertainty measurment tool, and that it is, instead, a description of absolute universal uncertainty in unobserved particles. Concerning your argument that the uncertainty principle does not conform to other physical theories, I would like to see evidence of that, as well as the experiments that have shown the uncertainty principle to be false.

Again, I must note that quoting Einstein at this point is close to laughable, considering he was dead wrong about alot of things, despite being a genius. When quantum theory and relativity came at odds, he did a thought experiment to prove that they could not work together, with the intent of disproving some elements of quantum mechanics. When we later found that the problem was on his end, much of the concepts behind special relativity collapsed, despite leaving the calculational aspects largely the same.

Moving on, we have observed particles in two places at once. That's why the uncertainty principle exists and you're going to need to accept that. That's the entire point of the double slit experiment, and you need to come to terms with that before arguing against its results while claiming to accept them. The reason quantum theory and free will are related is because of the observer problem, which still remains as one of physics' unexplained phenomena (of which there are few so inexplicable as this)

That being said, your analysis of probability and brain function is dubious at best. In reality, thoughts are comprised of electrical impulese that, by the uncertainty principle, cannot be quantified at any given time. The issue is that we know we are somehow observers, so by that regard said impulses have to be determined as they are in our brains. But, by the logical requirement of the observer, we need to change these particles in some way as we observe them and force data to be created for their position. By that regard, since we must be observers, and since we observe our own thoughts, we change our own thoughts. It seems like circular logic, but it's a rationalization on how an entity of free will would be able to extend said free will to the material world, simply by acting as this elusive observer entity that we have yet to define. I am not saying I'm right, I am simply stating that this is a possibility that has rational backing and that can't be proven false. By that regard, your assertion that quantum mechanics does not affect free will must be false. In order to make a claim for no free will, you're making quite a few leaps in logic, including a serious simplification of the human mind.



None.

Mar 25 2009, 2:19 am Vrael Post #48



Quote from JaBoK
Firstly, you say that the uncertainty principle is a calculation tool, which is not by any means true.
It's the theory behind the reality that is used to take the linear combinations of the states of an electron.

Concerning the rest of your post in relation to the truth of the uncertainty principle, you're technically right: I have no physical argument to present to you, and if we accept the theory because it explains the experimental results as the truth, I have no argument at all. If this is to be the extent of our argument than I am forced to conclude that I am wrong. I say again: I recognize this. I've read about Copenhagen and J. Bell, the EPR paradox, "hidden variables" and the Bell inequality, I've seen first hand the diffraction pattern through the double slits. I'm not lying to you, you don't need to keep telling me about the double slit experiment. As such, and since no one wants to hear about my metaphysical thoughts, I will discontinue arguing about it here, and grant you the truth of the issue.

The uncertainty principle does not conform to other physical theories in that the act of measurement actually reduces the amount of information we can gain from the object of measurment, since it forces the wave function to collapse.

Quote from JaBoK
Again, I must note that quoting Einstein at this point is close to laughable
I quoted him because he said what I wanted to say, first. I could have said it myself, though probably less elegantly.

As for the dubiosity (if that's the noun form) of my brain function analysis, I refer you back to the dubiously defined force of "the observer" which does not define at all how it collapses a wave function, only that it does collapse.
Quote from JaBoK
The issue is that we know we are somehow observers
Not true. The double slit experiment did not collapse to particles simply when we looked at it, rather we had to set up an apparatus. More likely, is that the neural transmitters in our brain require other neural transmitters to collapse from the wave function since they require some signal (a signal being a definite energy/position ect) to fire off.

My assertion wasn't quite that quantum mechanics doesn't affect free will. What I was saying was that it negligibly affects free will. There is a technical difference; namely that free will becomes technically possible, but not practically possible. Kinda like getting struck by a meteor: yeah it's possible, but its so infrequent that it shouldn't be a worry.

Quote from JaBoK
In order to make a claim for no free will, you're making quite a few leaps in logic, including a serious simplification of the human mind.
Please explain further so that I can rectify my arguments, or provide additional explaination where necessary. Being the one who made the argument, it seems clear to me, but what you said made it clear that it clearly isn't clear, if I may use clear so often in one sentence. Or I made a mistake somewhere.



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