I'm think I have a misconception of you believe to be the Trinity. Do you believe all three members of the Godhead are a single being? If so, the fundamental difference between our beliefs is that I believe each member is a distinct being and you believe they are one in the same. If not, I don't know exactly where we were going with this. It seems like you are saying you believe they are different (God commands angels to worship his son, God speaks when Jesus was baptized, the Holy Spirit dwells in the believers) yet they are still a single personage. That's the impression I'm getting anyway. I don't believe God is as incomprehensible as the writers of the two sites Millennium provided; a three-in-one spirit essence that is too complex to grasp.

When the scriptures refer to worshiping Jesus Christ we worship him in "the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us." "Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator." I worship Jesus in the sense that I am forever grateful for what he has done for the salvation and eternal life of man and for me alone especially, but this alone does not entitle him the glory that is deserving of the Father. Offering deep-felt reverence to another person may be a form of worship, but it is not the same as glorifying God in Heaven. Jesus Christ himself also worships and glorifies the Father: "But, behold my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me--Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever." (Moses 4:2, see also Matt. 6:13 and 1 Cor. 15:28)

In regards to God commanding the angels to worship His Son: "1--These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2--As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3--And this life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:1-3). Here, Jesus prays to the Father, asking the Father that He might "glorify thy Son," and, in return "that thy Son also may glorify thee." Jesus, after all, is "the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (Italics added, John 14:6).

John 1:1 is another reference to the Godhead. The Word (or Jesus Christ) is God in the same sense that Christ is of and equal to the Father. (See Acts 7:55-56, John 5:18-19, 1 Cor. 1:24, and Col. 1:19). Also, as you know, the Bible has gone through many translations, many of which have taken out or altered some of the truths that can be found in the Bible. Joseph Smith's inspired translation of John 1:1 is read as: "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God" (JST John 1:1).

The Trinity is 3 separate beings. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. All three of these beings are separate parsonages: The Spirit in us, The Son in Heaven, The Father on the throne. These three are all God in the same. I liked how Millennium described it. Another way to think of it is this. We humans are made up of a body, a spirit, and a soul right? If you believe that. My name is Jesse. Hi, how ya doin'? Well I have a body, a spirit, and a soul. They are all three Jesse though, right? Does that explain it better?


Is worship only for God, or is it not only for God? Sometimes in the Bible you see men worshiping angels. Why is that not just them being "reverently grateful" to the angels? People fell on their faces and worshiped the angels, and the angels rebuked them for it. Let me find the verse Jesus was quoting. "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:" Ex34:14 Are you saying that the word worship mentioned there means something different from the worship the disciples gave Jesus?

This is what I'm getting. Let me explain what I keep hearing. It's how with children you tell them, "Don't hit each other." What I'm hearing about the word worship is that there are different levels of worship. So one kid kicks another in the shin. The teacher punishes him for being disobedient. Another kid slaps someone in the face. The teacher punishes him also. One kid though purposely runs into another, and just because he didn't "hit" the kid in the sense that he slapped or kicked is it okay for him to go without punishment. I hear - "It's alright to worship Jesus in one sense, but not in another which is reserved for God." When the Bible says - "Worship God." Not - "Worship God in this sense, and these other ways are cool." Or - "Worship God in truth and spirit, but it's fine to worship something else in reverence."


We are on the same page here. Jesus does glorify the Father. Jesus is the only way to the Father.


If Christ is equal to the Father then wouldn't that mean that Jesus is God? Well, you said it. I put it in bold for you. I feel like you're the one making things "too complex to grasp."

Wait wait wait. If all those other translations were altering the Bible how do you know that Joseph Smith didn't? You have faith that he was given the true, inspired word of God? In Revelation it says not to take from or add to the word of God.

Alright, I understand what you're saying now. But I am still not convinced God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are the same God (as in the same one being). However, I feel they are unified in purpose, but are still distinct from one another. I'll assume you believe Jesus Christ is perfect and that he resurrected with a perfect body, so I ask you: if Christ is perfect and is with a body, wouldn't his Father also have the same perfection (see Matt. 5:48 and Luke 24:39)? You're analogy doesn't apply since there are two personages with a perfect body and one as a spirit. Also, Jesus was made perfect. Though he lived a perfect and sinless life, he was not yet perfect without having suffered in the garden and died on the cross yet (see Luke 13:32). I'll assume you also believe God is perfect, then why must his Only Begotten be made perfect? Stating that Jesus Christ is Elohim--God the Father--is incorrect. But saying he was made perfect and risen to the same glory as God is not.


Yes. We worship the Father by loving Him--including prayer to Him, keeping His commandments, loving one another--, and our relationship with Him is one of parent and child. We "worship" Jesus in a different, more grateful sense of the word. We do not keep Jesus' commandments, because as he says in John 12:49: "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." Though Christ established the primitive Church during his three-year ministry, made it possible for everyone to return to heaven, and did many miracles, he did it in the name of the Father.


What I was trying to get at is that we don't actually "worship" Christ as we do the Father. Let me take your analogy to an extreme. Two men, one man exceeds the speed limit on the highway and another murders his business associate. Both have committed crimes, but are they given the same sentence? To the former a certain punishment should be given, and to the latter a more severe punishment. Note I don't like comparing different forms of "worship" to different types of punishment, but, as I've quote before, "Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator" (Bruce R. McConkie, Our Relationship with the Lord). In my previous statement I stated that Jesus Christ is not Elohim, so you shouldn't be confused that Christ is not worshiped as the Father is.


Being equal to something else does not imply that the two are in fact the same. The two Senators from each state hold the same office, but they have different functions in Congress. Saying they are the same because they are both Senators would just be ludicrous.


The book described by the scripture you are referring to (Rev. 22:18-19) is not the Bible, but the Book of Revelations itself. That scripture cannot be talking about the Bible because not all of the text in the Bible was written or even assembled when John wrote Revelations. The book itself is being referenced in Revelations 1:3,11 and is the same when John concludes his book. Even so, in Rev. 22:19 it states that no man can take away from the book; it does not forbid that God may, through a prophet, add to the Word of God.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 15 2009, 9:52 pm by Fwop_. Reason: wording

as an unbiased observer, it is clear to me that the bible says both things that god = jesus, and God > Jesus. In the face of this impossibility on the level of 2+2=3, I come to the conclusion____ D) none of the above AKA the bible is not the perfect word of god.

Did I say God wasn't perfect? God is perfect. I'm sorry I didn't state that. I believe Jesus was born perfect. Where does it describe God's body in the Bible? I'm a little lazy at the moment. Concerning why Jesus needed to be perfected. Hrm. Good point. The Bible does say that. Would it be a stretch to think that Jesus meant in his flesh? He had to live, and be tempted Hebrews 2:18, in a body that was unperfect. Jesus was perfect, and that is how he went through life without any sins. Does that make sense? If he was raised to the same glory as God then what would he be? Another God?


John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jesus asked us to love him, by keeping HIS commandments. We are to love only one Lord. According to the greatest commandment.


What is the Biblical punishment for those crimes? Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death;"

In the Bible they worship Jesus just like they worship God. By falling on their face, and worshiping.


Okay. So if Jesus is equal then is he another God? I asked this before.

@That last part. I believe that all the books of the KJV Bible were inspired of God. Thusly why the scriptures in the old testament could predict Jesus' birth.

A couple of new points. Jesus said "I and my Father are one." in John 10:30 So you believe he meant in purpose?

You said something about Jesus being created. When in the Bible does it describe Jesus being created? John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." Please help me understand how Jesus could be made when nothing was made without him.

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born {Jesus, no?}, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

So if this isn't talking about Jesus. Explain that first. If you believe this is talking about Jesus, then why is he called the mighty God, and the everlasting Father?

@Clans : Did it ever occur to you that maybe me or maybe Fwop_ are wrong? This isn't over yet. We are still having a discussion. I'm glad we are both making good point though. Good discussion Fwop_!

It's painfully obvious to me that you are both right and both able to back up your points with citations. Jesus is TOTALLY worshiping god as something higher than himself, and in another verse he(or a disciple) is TOTALLY saying he is god and should be worshiped.

It doesn't surprise me that you don't believe there can more than one with the same perfection as God. Mainstream Christianity teaches there is only one God and none will ever be able to reach the same status. What do you make of the scriptures "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48) and "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me" (John 17:21)? It is a commandment for us to be perfect as God is; not God-like, but as God. As he says in the latter scripture, one of Jesus' goals is to have all people be in Christ and the Father as they are in each other. ("In" in this sense isn't to merge ourselves with God, but to also receive the glory of the Father as Jesus has).

I've mentioned earlier that Jesus rose to the perfection of the Father, so what is stopping him from also becoming a God? Granted, there can only be one supreme being in the universe and that glory is reserved for the Father.

Scriptures regarding the Corporeal Nature of God: Gen. 1:27 God created man in his own image; 5:1 God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 9:6 in the image of God made he man; 32:30 Jacob sees God face to face; Ex. 24:10 they saw the God of Isreal, there was under his feet; 31:18 tables of stone written with the finger of God; 33:11 Lord spake unto Moses face to face; 33:23 thou shalt see my back parts; Luke 24:39 for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have; John 14:9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; 2 Cor. 4:4 Christ, who is the image of God; Philip. 2:6 who, being in the form of God; 3:21 our vile body...fashioned like unto his glorious body. I could continue but the list is long enough as it is.


In the same chapter of John, verses 1, 2, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 all make mention of the Father. And, as I quoted earlier, John 12:49 indicates that Jesus has not spoken of himself, "but the Father which sent [him]." Why, then, should we assume Jesus is speaking for anybody but the Father in John 14:15?


Are you implying the punishment for murder is the same as the punishment for breaking a traffic law? I'll agree that those who live in their sin, refusing to take part in the atonement of Jesus Christ, will suffer a spiritual death--the separation of oneself from the presence of Heavenly Father.


Yes, they are one in purpose (see John 17:21-24), as in goals, desires, and plans. "For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39).


I don't rightly recall saying that Jesus was created. Jesus was with the Father during the Creation (note the use of "us" and "our") and took part in the Creation process (see Moses 2, in the Pearl of Great Price).


This is talking about Jesus and as I've stated before, Jesus ascended to the glory of God and speaks of the Father. "The mighty God" and "everlasting Father" attest to the power and immortality of Jesus Christ, which he inherited from the Father.


Back at you

Because he says "If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever:" He uses personal pronouns. As a simple way to put it. You'll have to go into greater detail about what he meant if he didn't mean himself when he said "I", "me", and "my".


I'm saying that if someone lives disobeying the law of man, which we are to follow as long as it does not go against God's law, and someone else lives as a murderer their spiritual punishment would be the same.



So Jesus is 'The mighty God", and "The everlasting Father"? If Jesus Christ has the same power as the Mighty God and Everlasting Father he has the same power and immortality of the Father? And you worship Jesus Christ? In any shape or form, you worship Jesus?

Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:"

If that is a different kind of worship why did they not use another word? I have a Greek/Hebrew dictionary in my concordance. This can give me the definition of the Greek words used in the New Testament. Before anyone says "That's proof that the Bible is filled with erronous translation." I'll use this example. When you see a word in a book you're reading that you don't know; you go and look it up in the dictionary. I'll leave that at that, but I have a feeling someone will say something. Anyway. The Greek word used in Matthew 2:2 where the wise men worshiped Jesus, and then in Matthew 28:17 when the disciples worshiped Jesus is proskuneo, pros-koo-neh'-o; to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (lit. or fig.) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):--worship. This same worship is what Satan wanted from Jesus in Matthew 4:9, and the same worship that Jesus told him was meant for God Matthew 4:10.

Now you can criticize my source there, but my point is that the word worship means 1 thing, not 2 different senses of the word. The worship they gave Jesus is the same worship they gave God.


Thank you for filling in my lazyness. What about John 4:24 "God is a Spirit". So then my analogy would apply that God is three in one. I believe that God made us in his image not only in this outward sense (2 legs and arms as one said before), but in the sense that we are a trinity being made of the spirit, soul, and body. Trinity in the dictionary is explained as divine unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not in purpose, but as described before. As our belief that is.

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I was reading today, and I found a couple of other interesting points to bring up. Both are in John.

John12:26 "If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour."

Here I see Jesus saying that he has servants, and that it is okay for him to be served. This passage speaks of us serving Jesus, because right after that Jesus says that whosoever will serve him his Father will honour. So let me go through a spiel here. In Deuteronomy 11:1 God commands us "Therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy God, and keep his charge, and his statures, and his judgments, and his commandments, always." So when God says something, you should always keep it. God says in verse 16 "Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;" It says not to worship, nor serve any other gods. You just said "I've mentioned earlier that Jesus rose to the perfection of the Father, so what is stopping him from also becoming a God? So not only does the Bible say that we worship and serve Jesus, but also on a side note Jesus said that if we love him we would keep his commandments just as God did in verse 1 of Deuteronomy 11. So in the logic of my blunt father, which tickles me sometimes, Jesus is either God or he is a false god.

Second point: John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." Jesus is the light of the world, neh? In John 12:35-36 "Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not wither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light." So Jesus is saying in a nutshell: I am with you a little longer {because soon he would be crucified}. Walk with me while I am here so that the darkness doesn't come upon you. While I'm here, believe in me that you may be my children.

My point is that in John 1 it speaks of Jesus and says in verse 12 "But as many as received him {Jesus}, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" So in John 1 it says that as many as believe in Jesus' name are the sons of God. In John 12 it says that as many believe in him {the light} are his sons. So I'm taking mathematical logic here. Let's say that the sons of the light = A, the sons of God = B, and all those who believe = C. A=C, B=C, therefore A=B.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 16 2009, 9:24 pm by Encore.

Ahhhhh, couldn't have said it better myself.

Prophets make frequent use of the phrase "thus saith the Lord" when speaking to the people, would you agree? They speak in the name of the Lord, giving His commandments and instructions. Christ can say they are his commandments, because Jesus Christ's and the Father's commandments are one and the same. It's a good thing, too.


Assuming the first never repents? Maybe. But I don't know where this is going anymore.


I'm sure if Jesus Christ appeared to you, you would bow down and probably clean his feet with your tears. After all, he fulfilled the Law of Moses, lived a sinless life, established his Church, overcame death making possible the resurrection of all, suffered all things so he could know how to succor his people, and atoned for the sins of the world allowing us to one day return to heaven. I'm sure if anyone believed or fully understood what Christ did, they would break down in humility, because without Christ, no one would make it into heaven.

However, Jesus Christ was under the direction of his Father and our Father. He was chosen from before the foundation of the world to be the redeemer of mankind. The Plan of Salvation that was established is God's plan. Though Christ made it possible, the Father is responsible for the immortality and eternal life of his children. Thus, our Heavenly Father must receive the glory of worship.

Jesus said: "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20:17) and, when being chosen as the redeemer, "Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever" (Moses 4:2). "Though Christ is God, yet there is a Deity above him, a Deity whom he worships. That God is the Father" (Bruce R. McConkie, Our Relationship with the Lord).


I knew you would bring that passage up. "God is a Spirit" is not the only defining attribute of God. 1 Cor. 1:9 "God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord"; Heb. 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire"; 1 Jn. 1:5 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all"; 1 Jn 4:16 "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." Also, in comparison to the last scripture quoted, if you continue reading in John 4:24, does it not say "they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth?" (Just as God is love, we must have love; just as God is a spirit, we must worship him in spirit).

For some clarification on this scripture, Joseph Smith's translation of John 4:24 reads: "For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth."


How do we serve the Father? By serving Jesus (John 12:26). How do we serve Jesus? By serving our brethren (see Matt. 25:40). By the logic you proposed we should serve God only and shouldn't serve anybody else--the very instructions he gives us to serve Him!


True that who believes in God may become his children, but also in John 1:12 it says Jesus gave them power. It isn't enough to simply believe, we must be called after the Holy Order of the Son of God. Else, there would be a lot more than twelve Apostles (were they not chosen by Jesus Christ?).

Yes, I would bow down to worship Jesus. I would do it because of what he has done for me, and also because I believe he is God. That doesn't change the command that worship is only for God. I know I'm probably going in a circle now, but I just can't get it in my head how you can worship Jesus if he isn't God. Please help me to understand your thinking here. So you believe that Jesus is equal to the Father, and is a God? Right? And it is alright to worship Jesus in reverence of what he has done for us, and then we worship God in "the true and saving sense"? Am I right so far?


Okay, your'e right there. Would my analogy not be feasible still?


What do you mean "We must be called after the Holy Order of the Son of God." God calls all to repentance. II Peter 3:9 "Not willing that any should perish, but that all should be called to repentance." Well, technically now Jesus left it to his church to call all to repentance when you think about it. The apostles had a different calling than any 'normal' believer. They had the call of the ministry, and not only that of accepting Jesus. Oh, and on a smart note, there were more than 12 apostles, but they all were called by Jesus


If you believe Jesus is a god then you are directly going against the commandment of God in Deuteronomry, right?

Question: What do you believe John is describing in Revelation chapter 1?


Seems like I'm winding down now. I've enjoyed your points, and I will think on them. I hope you've enjoyed mine.

First, understand that I don't believe Jesus Christ is the Father, but is literally His Only Begotten Son, making Christ our brother. As I've said before, I do not worship Christ as I do God the Father. But the way I act towards Jesus may be considered some form of worship, but it is not the same towards the Father. Say you were crossing the street and you forgot to look one way, and a friend of yours pulls you back in time before being hit by a car. Wouldn't you be grateful to that friend for saving your life? It's the same with Jesus Christ, he is our Redeemer and made it possible for us to return to our Father in heaven, but we still owe our worship towards God.


To me, it seems like you're trying to find a third part of us to fill in to make the trinity in ourselves applicable. Aren't "soul" and "spirit" synonymous? In any case, like God, we have a spirit and a body.


What I mean by the Holy Order of the Son of God is the Priesthood--the authority to act in God's name. All the Apostles had this Priesthood (see Heb. 5). This authority is what is necessary to run Christ's Church (see Matt. 10:1, 21:23, Mark 1:22, 13:34, and John 15:16 for examples of Jesus acting in this authority, which is his Father's, and giving it to his Apostles).


How so? We serve God by serving others (see Matt. 25:40). Serving Jesus would mean the same thing--serving others. King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon describes service as this: "And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God" (Mosiah 2:17).


I'm a little short on time, I'll have to read it and get back to you.

Okay, that makes more sense. So why does the Bible say that they worshiped Jesus? I don't believe they were just being grateful.


Just to show that there is a difference in soul and spirit I quote I Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man is made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." Also, a better example, I Thessalonians 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


But we are on the same page that even those who are not called into the ministry are the sons of God also, right?

All right, get back to me on that Rev 1 thing.

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Meanwhile. New question.

-Luke 6:40 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master."
-Mark 12:28 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"
-Matthew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."
-John 13:13-14 "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet."

So I've terribly skipped over many wonderful lessons, and doctrines, but I wanted to get to something.

Jesus is our Lord. God is our Lord. The Lord our God is one Lord. Jesus is our master. God is our Master. We cannot serve two masters. If you would say that Jesus is perfect as his master God, then I would say: Being as something doesn't mean you are something. In poetry it is a simile I believe. Also- Jesus isn't as the master, he IS the master according to John 13.

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Also: In Matthew 1 Jesus' name is "God with us" {Immanuel} Explain this please. If he isn't God, how is he God with us? Edit: Just in case you say that he was God's image down here in the world I would like to back this up with some other scripture I just found. In I Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (Note that he was already had the glory of the Father, and did not inherit it.) Paul was sent to preach Jesus Christ unto the Gentiles. Galatians 2:2 "And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles..." To know that this gospel is Jesus - Acts 17:3b "Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ." John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him {his son} should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Luke 24:51 "And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven."

Also in I Timothy 4:10 "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." John 4:42 "And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Feb 20 2009, 11:44 pm by Encore.

Jesus Immanuel Esa.

Theres an old saying "the last christian died on the cross." Its been going on for centuries people use religion as an excuse to do as they please. Also most christians from what I've seen don't read the bible they merely go to church and wear the christian name tag in hopes that if there is a hell they won't go to it. Not to mention if you don't believe in God the bible has no real meaning so you have to believe in God for the bible to have any real meaning in your life to begin with.

I would also like to state that belief always beats fact for people would rather believe in a lie then admit they are wrong. "When fact meets belief fact goes out the window." Also the statement "Don't confuse me with the facts!" is a good example of this.

God the Father is the Spiritual form that dwells outside our realm of perception and understanding. While Jesus is the word of God that created existence, also the holy spirit was sent so that God would be with everyone not just a few people. Also just because you are saved and believe in God and Jesus doesn't mean the Holy Spirit dwells within you.

Religion has a place in society it just needs to wake up and realize that to many facts contradict Genesis. Also I've read Genesis and I never really saw where it said that Adam and Eve looked like us for all we know we all might be right to a degree God created apes named Adam and Eve who started early man we then evolved into what we are now. There I just combined Evolutionism and Creationism also apparently that means God actually looks like an ape.

For one I believe that there is a God. I believe he created existence put it on autopilot and since then has sat back and watched life play out. He began the life cycle no more he does not interfer he did not create man directly but indirectly by beginning existence. The rest is explained by science.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Sep 14 2010, 12:51 pm by Kemuel.

God=Jesus but God>Jesus because God cannot die Jesus could. Although Jesus is God made flesh he was still born of a mortal woman thusly Jesus wasn't really a God he was more of a host for the God. The man who traveled the world was a man but also God because God dwelled within him. You have to think of it with more of an open mind you stated you were observing unbiased but somehow I doubt that no view on religion is truly unbiased. I see how its confusing but you need to think of it not as Jesus actually being God walking around in his true form rather than God walking around in a host body that he created by knocking up a virgin.


If it does state what we looked like in the beginning I guess I'll just need to read it again. Also I would like to state that nothing I say is ment to be offensive so I apologize now if I offended or insulted anyone here.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 14 2010, 1:49 am by Kemuel.

don't take this offensively, but personally i feel that no amount of srs discussion will help with religious topic because it is simply what people believe in.

Wow. This topic has been revived? Well, even though I am an atheist, I read Genesis, Exodus, Matthew and Luke from the King James version of the bible bible during the summer. And I am still not convinced why I should ever bother to believe god exists. Bleh.

For people who say religion contradicts itself by starting war its not religion itself that starts wars its the people who use religion as an excuse to kill and pillage people they don't like. Even if there was no religion people would still find a reason to kill each other over petty differences and money. So its not really religion contradicting itself its the people who contradict religion. They don't truly believe in the religion so they don't really lisen to what the religion preaches.

Also existence is for what we know of it infinite to believe it is impossible for there to be a being of omnipotent power who started everything is as foolish. Science doesn't know everything nor does it fully explain the nature of the universe because if it did humanity probably wouldn't be as messed up. Science has not really proven or disproven the existence of a God you all just assume there isn't because we have explained things that we contribute to God. Just because we discovered atoms and physics doesn't rule out that there could be a God who set everything up.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 14 2010, 12:50 pm by Kemuel.

Don't read the bible to believe in God! Read the bible because you believe in God! Again if you don't believe in God the bible is meaningless to you. Also some parts of the bible should not be taken literally because some parts use alot of symbolism to describe other things. Also you may find it interesting that the bible was translated into the common tongue by an illiterate farmer.