Staredit Network > Forums > Serious Discussion > Topic: "Read the bible to believe god exists?"
"Read the bible to believe god exists?"
Dec 10 2008, 6:46 am
By: KrayZee
Pages: 1 2 322 >
 

Dec 10 2008, 6:46 am KrayZee Post #1



When I logged in to AIM, generally the website to AOL pops up. On the front page, it revealed an article about George W. Bush is a strong willed Christian that doesn't believe in evolution. Of course, he admitted that the war on terror is nothing religious. There were four polls and it was quite surprising to see the statistics. Later, I read the many comments leaving Christians trying to prove anyone understanding evolution and science, only to believe in Jesus Christ.

The first thought in my mind, I thought that was bullshit. I'm not against Christians, but they also said "Go read the bible" to those that doesn't believe in god. It is pretty clear that anyone believing in evolution will respond and ask them to read science textbooks in public schools. Especially since that public schools teaches history, history textbooks will prove what went wrong in the past and iconic events. If a $80 textbook teaches students what went wrong in the past, especially religion, then why would they want to waste time by reading the bible? The bible on the other hand is like any other book, only as an iconic book in religion. It is believable to see that people will not dedicate their life to literature stories written by famous authors from the 16th to the 21st centuries. Yet it is hard to believe that people still dedicate their life in the book written 2000 years ago knowing that Jesus died for everyone's lives.

I also hate how Christians tries to oppose evolution and science. Understanding the concept of science just proves that individuals can learn how the world functions and works. Evolution IS a theory, but I hate how Christians tries to urge that 'theories' are fake. I'm pretty sure that evolution is as real as it can get since it connects together.

If there are any Christians trying to convince people that god is real, it is 99.99% impossible (In what I think of) because public schools taught them how the world works and functions, also revealing how religion ruined hundreds of millions of lives. However, trying to convince a Christian to believe in evolution and science is real is a 50% chance (In what I think of as well) depending on their age and their life. Younger kids will believe ANYTHING ever taught to them, and with Christianity asking "If you do _______ or are ______, you will go to hell" will bring fear for the rest of their life. Then there are the ignorants who can't think of anything but that "God did it".


Also, knowing how science works, it's pretty ironic how people doesn't believe in science are using computers made under the knowledge of science. Without the knowledge of physics, environmental, biological, psychological, etc, we will still be in the Medieval age of poverty, fear, and idiots. If not exaggerated, we will still use muskets and cannons along by eating apple and bread.

Lastly, if this can't convince Christians to understand science and evolution, good luck to them. And yes, people still exist that understands evolution, science, and religion. I'm not saying Christians are idiots, but I am saying that they are wrong.


Ultimate comedic sarcastic video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89drdl0Ck7U



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Dec 10 2008, 7:01 am UnholyUrine Post #2



First: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9izVu_TtAE

Second: Think of Westboro Baptist Church. If you haven't heard of them, they are people who spread hatred because they think God told them to. They go against the bible itself. Do they care? Do they think they're disobeying God even though they missed the "love thy neighbor" part? No! They simply say "Go read the bible, bimbo". Did they even read it themselves? All they every read was "God shall bring wrath upon sinners" and I just made that up.

So, in the end, it is an artificial believe. As long as you believe it, and are perfectly brainwashed, you will believe in anything. Science is different. Science is based on facts and theories that has been experimented on. Experiments MUST be replicable, and if they aren't, then the theory will be rejected. Unfortunately, and conveniently for Christians, they say Do NOT believe Scientists. Of course, they will totally believe it because they have faith in it...

So what can you do? You all know it's crazy, but they're still geniune, nice people, who were brainwashed... As long as they don't cause you any harm, and as long as they don't spread hatred, then it is fine. Just tell them to bitch off if they defy science, because it is impossible to rescue them already.

Third:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSFrNOnvtls&feature=related <-- documentary

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 10 2008, 7:11 am by UnholyUrine.



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Dec 10 2008, 7:06 am KrayZee Post #3



Quote from UnholyUrine
So what can you do? You all know it's crazy, but they're still geniune, nice people, who were brainwashed... As long as they don't cause you any harm, and as long as they don't spread hatred, then it is fine. Just tell them to bitch off if they defy science, because it is impossible to rescue them already.
I wouldn't call them 'nice' if this topic is suddenly moved into politics. Since I don't want politics in this topic, I'd like to leave that on the Obama vs McCain topic. Yet I'd like to point out that proves another point in politics where the young people are preferred as democrats. But I'm pretty sure it isn't hard to convince a child (LIke I said, 50%) to understand science.



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Dec 10 2008, 7:29 am MillenniumArmy Post #4



It seems to me that when a lot of people mention anything about christianity (or any religion), they always like to bring in something totally unrelated: science. The only time this subject can be brought up is if the topic at hand was creationism. Creationism != christianity != religion.

IMO one of the main reasons christians feel the need to oppose evolution and/or science isn't necessarily because that these subjects themselves go against their faith or doctrines, but because of the anti-religious sentiment, attitude, and/or motive follow up by the people who bring these subjects to light. For instance, like when Atheists bring up these topics as proponents in their stances against religion and when prominent figures like Richard Dawkins write entire books using their knowledge in the sciences to aid in their seemingly persecutive criticism of religion.

It's more like retaliation than persecution, whether it's unintentional or not.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 10 2008, 7:38 am by MillenniumArmy.



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Dec 10 2008, 7:48 am KilaByte Post #5



I would have to agree with MA on this one. There will always be conflicts between people and their beliefs. It is beyond me why people continue these pointless debates when there clearly can be no winner.

Although one party may be right or wrong, there is no way to truly know. So keep your "opinions" to yourself, if someone wants to know about your beliefs then they will ask you about it. This goes for Atheist, Christians, Muslims, Jews, ect. ect. If someone truly 100% believes that they are right, there is no convincing them otherwise and therefore no reason to carry on a pointless debate over who is right and wrong.

And the only reason this conflict is in place now (Evolution vs Creation) is because each side thinks they are right, and because the idea are in such direct conflict, if one side is right, the other MUST be wrong. This is what happens when you have too many people that are not open to other ideas and think that the only right way, is their way.



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Dec 10 2008, 8:04 am KrayZee Post #6



Quote from KilaByte
I would have to agree with MA on this one. There will always be conflicts between people and their beliefs. It is beyond me why people continue these pointless debates when there clearly can be no winner.

Although one party may be right or wrong, there is no way to truly know. So keep your "opinions" to yourself, if someone wants to know about your beliefs then they will ask you about it. This goes for Atheist, Christians, Muslims, Jews, ect. ect. If someone truly 100% believes that they are right, there is no convincing them otherwise and therefore no reason to carry on a pointless debate over who is right and wrong.

And the only reason this conflict is in place now (Evolution vs Creation) is because each side thinks they are right, and because the idea are in such direct conflict, if one side is right, the other MUST be wrong. This is what happens when you have too many people that are not open to other ideas and think that the only right way, is their way.
I'm pretty sure that science are facts and works by itself without the knowledge of it happening. However, with the knowledge of science, you can expand ways of technology, medicine, etc. Science is obviously not a religion.



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Dec 10 2008, 8:13 am UnholyUrine Post #7



Yes, Science is not a religion, but you can still choose to believe in it or not.

I also agree with MA, where christians are retaliating against evolution. Darwin, dispite the fact that he was a pope, probably never thought about using his theory of Natural Selection to go against creationism. Actually, him being a pope further proves that, since he probably won't dwell on subjects that seemingly goes against his belief. He never even thought about it, he simply made clear, scientific observations, and made a scientific theory that was proven again, and again correct by other scientists.



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Dec 10 2008, 9:20 am KilaByte Post #8



Quote from KrayZee
I'm pretty sure that science are facts and works by itself without the knowledge of it happening. However, with the knowledge of science, you can expand ways of technology, medicine, etc. Science is obviously not a religion.

Not all Science is fact. Based on facts, maybe, but not all facts.

Evolution is a theory.
Some even say Gravity is still just a theory.

You can prove that when you throw something in the air, it comes back down to earth. But can you prove that its gravity that makes such a thing happen?
Therefore you are believing in Gravity, making Gravity just like all other things that can't/haven't been proven true yet.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p67.htm

So...
Christians - Belief in a entity known as "God" that may or may not exist, created all life.
Evolution - Belief in the idea that, over time, organisms adapt and grow into other organisms.
(Not the actual definitions. These are mine.)

So you can look at it too ways.

Either Christianity is a theory.
Or Evolution is a religion.

But, If Evolution is a religion, and evolution is science, then Science is a religion.
Or if Christianity is a theory, and theories are an aspect of Science, then Christianity is a Science.

err.. well... Now I've got myself confused. I need to stop thinking so much.



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Dec 10 2008, 10:43 am Doodan Post #9



Quote from UnholyUrine
Yes, Science is not a religion, but you can still choose to believe in it or not.

I also agree with MA, where christians are retaliating against evolution. Darwin, dispite the fact that he was a pope, probably never thought about using his theory of Natural Selection to go against creationism. Actually, him being a pope further proves that, since he probably won't dwell on subjects that seemingly goes against his belief. He never even thought about it, he simply made clear, scientific observations, and made a scientific theory that was proven again, and again correct by other scientists.

Where did you get that Darwin was a pope?

I frequently have arguments with a very religious friend of mine about topics such as this. I find it funny when she insists that we stop discussing things that make her question her faith, because she's afraid that doubting her path is going to screw up the direction she wants to take in life. Nothing she's ever said has made me wonder "Gee, maybe Christians have a point..." So Killa, "thinking too much" is indeed scary to some people. I say that if your belief system can't stand up to questioning, then you might want to re-evaluate your belief system.

The reason why people that promote science tend to argue against religion is because SEVERAL of their discoveries go directly against what the Bible explains about the origin of life and its explanation for many other phenomenon. I liken it to the mounting evidence hundreds of years ago that the earth is round and not flat, or that the earth rotated around the sun and not vice versa. Scientists were saying "We all used to think this way, but hey, maybe we were wrong. The latest discoveries are pointing in this direction." People were quite literally killed and imprisoned by religious authority for making ANY sort of claim that refuted their stranglehold on the knowledge that was given to the populace. The theory of evolution is much younger, more rational, and has more proof to back it up than the ancient biblical explanation for the origins of life. I like where this is going...

For a long time, I tried to have it both ways. I tried to be as scientific as possible, but I also held on to residual faith in something. I was motivated in a very similar way to that friend I described earlier. I believed I was on a "Path in Life" that GOD wanted for me. Turns out that wasn't the case. When I sat down and honestly re-evaluated myself, I admitted that it was my own vanity that was holding on to a belief in a higher power. I wanted to believe this universe-governing deity was on my side, and that this thing, like an ultra-rich parent, would work behind the scenes to get me what I wanted. It turns out there are rational explanations for everything, especially things that I took as "signs from god." I feel much more at peace as a person by giving up those last scraps of religious influence from childhood. I feel much more at peace not worrying about some invisible, universe-creating creature constantly looking over my shoulder and influencing my life.

But it can't be both ways. Sometimes we find out we were wrong, and it's become quite clear that religion was wrong in its self-propagating explanation for life. Creationism is the current hot-button issue for the evangelical right-wing voters that have been energized since the early 80s (after losing ground in pro-life, gay marriage, and living will controversies). I find it fitting justice that all of the republican candidates for president that admitted they did not believe in evolution were quickly beaten by stronger, fitter campaigns. A large swath of the right-wing believes in science, and they too are concerned about the delusional certainty of their evangelical party-mates. The evangelicals will eventually get tired of losing and find some other sensational topic to waste newspaper ink with. Until that day comes, I hope that the people that believe in creationism read this cartoon and realize how silly they sound.

[attach=2193]



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Dec 10 2008, 11:58 am InsolubleFluff Post #10



I didn't read everyones posts, in fact i only read the first one and looked at the funny picture provided above. However, what I wanted to add to the discussion was my friend who is hardcore 'i love jesus' says 'I believe in evolution, but on a microscopic level, occuring only in cells.' However as us real people know, the body works something like: Atoms >> Molecules >> Cells >> Tissue >> Organ >> Organ System >> Organism.
So if they can believe change occurs at a smaller level, why is it so hard to believe that lots of little changes to lots of little levels would make an overall change to the bigger picture?

That was pretty much my little rant on evolution, but now to force my athiest beliefs into the discussion!!
If we exist within the universe. And if the universe didn't exist; we wouldn't exist. How did god exist, before existane existed?
If Jesus was sent to die on the cross for us and did it to teach us a lesson because of pety theft, violene and such things as throwing stones, why has no uber jesus came down from the heavens now that we have huge wars, world hunger, poverty, global warming? Either he doesn't exist or he's getting a massive erection from watching us all suffer.
If I choose not to believe in god, thus heaven and hell also do not exist to me, why when they tell me i'm going to hell, should I care?
If I am athiest and chosen to follow the path of damnation, why must they take it upon themselves to tell me i'm wrong. After all, they're not jesus are they?

Enough if statements now :)
Not too long ago I was walking down the street and this man asked 'do i know about jesus christ' I said 'yes' and he asked 'would you like to learn more?' Like
honestly, since when did afterlife become a business perspective?



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Dec 10 2008, 1:35 pm BeDazed Post #11



I wish to say that you guys should not generalize all the Christians. In reality, only the radical most conservative parts of Christianity go against the undeniable facts of Science. Whos to say God and Science can actually co-exist. There are many Christians who really don't take the Bible 'literally'- rather they explain it to fit the current truths- however small amount of knowledge we actually know... I can't even get there. But I can assure our current understanding of the Universe itself is near to none, and thus we wouldn't even understand or how even an entity like a 'God' can even exist. Theres no doubt about how evolution exists with our current observation of cross-breeding and many kind of forcibly done genetic engineerings. There were numerous successes in cloning critters, and whos to say our next step is to create a Chimera. Likewise, Evolution is an undeniable fact with today's evidence.

Quote
If we exist within the universe. And if the universe didn't exist; we wouldn't exist. How did god exist, before existane existed?
God could be multi-universal, created within another Universe before our Universe began. The theory goes on even more. Our Universe could be only an atom worth of thing in a bigger universe containing trillions and trillions of same universes like ours bigger or smaller- ever expanding or ever shrinking. And so on and on and on and on and on and on 100000^100000 times.

Bible really is mysterious and mystical. You can imagine millions of ways to understand the Bible. But the main example of those who speak out against Science are those who believe in the Bible and take the Bible literally to everything.

Quote
If Jesus was sent to die on the cross for us and did it to teach us a lesson because of pety theft, violene and such things as throwing stones, why has no uber jesus came down from the heavens now that we have huge wars, world hunger, poverty, global warming? Either he doesn't exist or he's getting a massive erection from watching us all suffer.
If I choose not to believe in god, thus heaven and hell also do not exist to me, why when they tell me i'm going to hell, should I care?
If I am athiest and chosen to follow the path of damnation, why must they take it upon themselves to tell me i'm wrong. After all, they're not jesus are they?

If there really is an afterlife, then theres two ways to look it over.
- The Afterlife was not as Christians viewed.
- There really is the Kingdom of Heaven and Hell which you will regret that you did not believe in God.
If there is no afterlife...
- You don't even know that you've died.

And yeah. There is a need to read the Bible to argue in these subjects. Because Bible tells Christians to spread their beliefs, and turn those who do not believe to believe? The religion itself is quite imperialistic.



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Dec 10 2008, 2:26 pm JaFF Post #12



Quote from KrayZee
Without the knowledge of physics, environmental, biological, psychological, etc, we will still be in the Medieval age of poverty, fear, and idiots.
We are still in an age of povetry, fear and idiots.

A religion must not push ideas into people's heads, but draw people to its ideas. It must not make the follower a slave in any sense; he must be free in his choice of ideas, and if it means creating his own religion just for himself (with his own 'God' and rules), then so be it. In my opinion, organized religion is just trying to bring everything to a common denominator without giving the individuals enough freedom. Which is why I dislike it.

Just some random unfiltered thoughts there.



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Dec 10 2008, 2:37 pm BeDazed Post #13



Quote
A religion must not push ideas into people's heads, but draw people to its ideas. It must not make the follower a slave in any sense; he must be free in his choice of ideas, and if it means creating his own religion just for himself (with his own 'God' and rules), then so be it. In my opinion, organized religion is just trying to bring everything to a common denominator without giving the individuals enough freedom. Which is why I dislike it.

Just some random unfiltered thoughts there.
100% Agreed.



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Dec 10 2008, 2:43 pm Phobos Post #14

Praise.

I'm Christian but... I wouldn't say I feel offended to this or any post of any sort, for I think I'm actually quite different if compared to the average Christian. I rarely go to the church, I do things on my own, I don't go to gatherings... I feel that if there is a God, and if he is as magnificent as they told us it was, well, he'd base himself in our actions rather than the number of times we went to the church.

Theories may explain many things, but they still are (At least until now) just theories. As for the existence not only of a Christian God, but a God in any religion, well, some may believe it, but we don't have proof that such a being exists. At this rate, of course, theories are by far easier to believe and are more valid.

I take both parties might be right. I mean, I believe in God, but that doesn't make me an ignorant. I'm not ignorant when talking about science, but I don't know that much either. Let's say I know a bit more than the average person. Well, I don't see why RELIGION has to be right and why EVOLUTION has to be wrong. I'm most probably wrong believing that RELIGION is right, but well, I guess that's the path I decided to follow, and won't change my mind.

The point is that, Christian or whatever religion, people should not be so close minded. Humans make mistakes; there is no way to ensure that religion wasn't, from the very start, one of the biggest mistakes of humanity (Although, I do think it helps to keep morals, but there are many atheist that behave even better than religious people, which discards that idea for the most part).

And I think I'm kind of what JaFF says religion should be O.o but that could be me just bragging.




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Dec 10 2008, 3:00 pm BeDazed Post #15



Theoratically speaking, the Bible can be bent and transformed to fit all the materials that exist in Science.



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Dec 10 2008, 4:25 pm KrayZee Post #16



Here is the article that made me created this topic. Just check the polls and read certain comments. I agree with Doodan, good argument.

Quote from BeDazed
God could be multi-universal, created within another Universe before our Universe began. The theory goes on even more. Our Universe could be only an atom worth of thing in a bigger universe containing trillions and trillions of same universes like ours bigger or smaller- ever expanding or ever shrinking. And so on and on and on and on and on and on 100000^100000 times.
God in multi-universe? I could bring a discussion about StarCraft, where the Xel'Naga are considered as gods and creators of both the Zerg and the Protoss. But that's fictional and may happen at other distant stars. Even if gods do exist in other planets, it is likely it is a scientific purposes decided by aliens. It's quite impossible to discover Jesus from them.

Quote from JaFF
We are still in an age of povetry, fear and idiots.
Not at the Medieval age level.

Quote from Phobos
ITheories may explain many things, but they still are (At least until now) just theories. As for the existence not only of a Christian God, but a God in any religion, well, some may believe it, but we don't have proof that such a being exists. At this rate, of course, theories are by far easier to believe and are more valid.

The point is that, Christian or whatever religion, people should not be so close minded. Humans make mistakes; there is no way to ensure that religion wasn't, from the very start, one of the biggest mistakes of humanity (Although, I do think it helps to keep morals, but there are many atheist that behave even better than religious people, which discards that idea for the most part).

And I think I'm kind of what JaFF says religion should be O.o but that could be me just bragging.
Like I said, Christians likes to bring the word 'Theory', don't use it against arguments.

Religion asks people to not be so close minded, yet some that are possessed under religion loves to be racist, discriminator, hate, biased, etc. Christianity in general had been split into multi-religions, yet still believing that there is one god watching over us but rejecting everything else. Science is split into categories (Biological, psychological, etc) that all connects together.

I know for a fact that religion will slowly disintegrate over time, except rednecks.



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Dec 10 2008, 5:37 pm BeDazed Post #17



Quote
God in multi-universe? I could bring a discussion about StarCraft, where the Xel'Naga are considered as gods and creators of both the Zerg and the Protoss. But that's fictional and may happen at other distant stars. Even if gods do exist in other planets, it is likely it is a scientific purposes decided by aliens. It's quite impossible to discover Jesus from them.
What you've said is so incoherent and incomprehensible. You haven't even got my point correctly; why would you even bring such a puny example as to what you're talking about? Christianity's 'God' is much more advanced, sophisticated, and on a much larger scale then another puny race like the 'Xel'Naga'

Because you didn't seem to be getting it- The Universe is literally 'the Space', the entire Cosmos- and theres likely to be more than one of them. The theory is that God isn't limited to just this Universe- and could be formless, or comprised of materials that we have not even seen or heard of in our universe. It could be able to create, destroy, change the law itself on a particular universe. What I mean is there could actually be an omnipotent entity. And this entity could have experienced several falls and creations of Universes, and could 'create' Universes if it wished- and destroy if it wished. Whether the Entity came into existance technologically from several Universes ago- or whether the Entity was first created would be beyond the grasp of 'time' of what our puny universe can be. In that sense, this 'Entity' could have existed before Time even started. In other Universe, Time itself might not even exist- and could be something else our Brains can't even start to grasp.
Planets and Alien species can't even go as far to be an example to what I am speaking right now. If you're failing to grasp this then you shouldn't have posted this article at all.

Also.
If you haven't studied Bible at all, you wouldn't know- but Jesus is not just God's son; he is God itself in the form of a human being. Because our brains were so small at the time, we could only see it as the God's son; and not himself. I've already explained my viewpoint of my Christianity as being liberal and not conservative.



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Dec 10 2008, 7:17 pm Pigy_G Post #18



You can't have something out of nothing unless there is a creator. Something has to create the scrap pieces, a metalworker doesn't just summon steel and iron out of thin air does he? At the beginning something had to happen to create the earth, if we go by the big bang theory I still say something had to create the tools that were used. I also beleive that the world would be in much more chaos than it is now if God did not exist. The world is too functional. to be created on accident, look at your hand? Do you realize how complex just a square inch of your body is? It's like rolling a 50 billion sided dice once and getting the number you hoped for. God exists. This is what I beleive, The evidence is in the mirror.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 10 2008, 8:51 pm by Pigy_G.



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Dec 10 2008, 7:30 pm Doodan Post #19



Quote from Pigy_G
You can't have something out of nothing unless there is a creator. Something has to create the scrap pieces, a metalworker doesn't just summon steel and iron out of thin air does he? At the beginning something had to happen to create the earth, if we go by the big bang theory I still say something had to create the tools that were used. I also beleive that the world would be in much more chaos than it is now if God did not exist. The world is too perfect to be created on accident, look at your hand? Do you realize how complex just a square inch of your body is? It's like rolling a 50 billion sided dice once and getting the number you hoped for. God exists. This is what I beleive, The evidence is in the mirror.

Please read the latter pages of the "questions on evolution" thread that is also in SD. This topic is very similar to that one...

Oh, and the world is "too perfect?" Ironic that the first creatures to be conscious of the harmony of nature are also the ones that are destroying it fastest.



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Dec 10 2008, 8:06 pm Pigy_G Post #20



I apologize, I should not have said perfection, I should have said functional.



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