even if you did do those 2 things it's still taking someone else's terrain, idea, and over all flow. (I say flow cuz I don't know how else to explain it). Say I make a zone control map and change only the triggers/unit placements and stats. I would still never call it my own. Did I make zone control? of course not.

And even if you somehow feel changing triggers/unit placement/stats over comes that, the fact of the matter is, it isn't your map. You didn't build the map, you merely changed it.

I don't and never will terrain a map. I'm a coder. I think if I do everything else in the map except for terrain, and give credit in the map to the original terrainer, and took the terrain from a version he never protected, then it is very acceptable.

And yes, that zone control would be yours and made by you.

I've seen your sniper maps, so I don't expect you to appreciate the effort that goes into making good triggers.

Terrain is secondary. Yes it is important, but trigger systems that are smoother, better, and more efficient are much more difficult to make then new terrain.

Good terrain takes time. A lot of time. Granted, not as much as triggering/balance and what have you, but it's still a big role and can make or break a map. Second, I am a coder, I'm actually a terrainer second. Actually I'm best at concepts and balance then decent at code, but either way terrain is last. And there are a lot of unfinished things that I've done that don't make it on sen. So please don't nark on me based on assumption.

As someone who is all about concept/ideas, I would hate for someone to take my concept/idea and call it their own without credit. Granted, this is starcraft, not anything fancy, but if you put in the time to create a good game without stealing it, you don't want to see it taken.

Also, as I read the posts on your map, the original creator doesn't sound too thrilled your changing it.

Well, neither did he say no. Although I agree that terrain takes a lot of time, one should also take into account that this isn't an RPG or a real starcraft melee where terrain was taken into real consideration; it looks to me that maintaining the shape of Europe was the main focus.

Yeh that is very true, I had forgotten that part. But still, to take someone's idea and unit layout and tech tree and whatnot is still unacceptable for a contest in my opinion.

I changed more than half the unit placement, and I completely threw out the tech tree(which you can't actually change so it shouldn't be called that, but I know what you mean), so for the last time the only thing I copied was the terrain, because it's a basic map of europe! Almost every diplo uses the same god dam terrain of europe, but they are all different maps that are independent of one another. I even spent about an hour changing the terrain, so I didn't just copy that either.

I'm the kind of mapper/player that looks for potential. I see something a map tried to do, and then I give it a second shot. I've done it with MTG Magus and Temple Siege in the past with success, to the benefit of both players and mappers. I recognize at this point Europe Zombies 2 isn't going to have that same success, but I don't think I did anything immoral getting there.

As for your concepting rant, there are 2 kinds of people. People that can manifest their great ideas, and people that can't. I used to think I was special and had above average ideas, but making them a reality is all that really matters. Just look in ums theory for evidence. I think everyone believes they have some of the greatest game/movie/book ideas conceptualized in their head if only they could pay someone to do all the real work.

Well I guess you can talk because you've never edited someone elses map, and released a version you thought was better. Oh wait you did http://www.staredit.net/?file=1818

That's pretty much all I can say. If you can mount a better rebuttal then you are the most objective judge of mapping morals and I give up.

Alright, whatever. Let the judges decide whether or not it is eligible. If there are judges. Are there?

I'm 99% done with my map, I just need testers...

Done.

The Industrial World

Yeah, I completely forgot with exams and shit. Take me off.

It's too late to submit now (and I reckon we have to make a new map)

But if you're interested in an RTS map
File: Post Apocalyptic Warfare

Nobody ever played it.

The latest version of my map can be found here:

Map Showcase - The Industrial World

I guess this contest got overshadowed by other events.

TZ left SEN and Starcraft, so yeah.

I can see how that might be a problem

can someone post the rankings for this contest, or post a list of the maps involved please? were the winners even decided?

Sorry, s0fty, but I believe no one won, and everybody lost...