For the record, I thought Farty was completely clear in his statements and was a little boggled by the fact that anyone didn't understand what he meant.

No one cares.

I'm not dead or banned.

lmao

I don't remember saying that.

Is it because you had read posts like Brontobyte's where he put Eminem as artist of the year?

rofl

If Lethal's Map is so good, then why have I never played it :S...
It can't be "THAT" good that it shuns publicity ... ... unless it's not done of course :S, then I'd like to see =D

It's been stated several times that Lethal hasn't finished any map. All his maps are incomplete maps or concept maps.

I already posed the question as to how this should factor into our decision for "Best Mapper" and what the criteria are for being called "Best Mapper", but I guess this also affects the category "Best Map". Best Map is vague, because technically even an incomplete map is a "map". So should an incomplete map be allowed to be nominated for "Best Map"?

It's certain that Lethal is skilled in triggering, but is that all there is to a map and being the best mapper? There's also the terrain aspect to consider and other things such as gameplay, map layout, overall feel, and entertainment value. I'm sure each thing can be demonstrated in separate maps, but shouldn't the best mapper demonstrate a proficiency in each one and have shown he can put them all together in a single map?

Also, Is there a great difference in finishing a map and only having an incompleted map? Is there some kind of aspect or skill that is a part of mapping that a mapmaker doesn't demonstrate if he has never completed a map, and if so is that important?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 24 2008, 6:47 am by Mayor.

I think it's purely psychological. Lethal, for examle, will never release something he can find a slightest flaw or room for improvement in. Almost the same applies to me - I could have released (and claimed the released version to be the final) my thing map atleast twice, but I decided to push on and make it better and more sophisticated.

Lethal is probably the best SC triggerer in existance, and if he considers the Beta version of Elementa good enough, I will go out of my way and nominate it as Best Map and its creator as Best Mapper, and sugegst you do the same.

Both Tarpit D and the Puzzling were not created in '08

However, I don't think any of Lethal's maps are that close to completion where he could release them without really adding any more to it. Sure they're "playable" but they still lack elements that come from polishing a map and making it player friendly and the question is whether he can be called best mapper if he hasn't demonstrated that he can do those things and if they are of any importance.

I don't know. Sure it looks good and it's probably one of the best maps from a trigger standpoint, but it hasn't shown the pure entertainment value that some other maps have. It's too early to tell how fun the map will turn out to be, but I think whether it can be called the best map depends on it.

A mapmaker can execute a map perfectly, but if he starts off with a bad concept then the end product won't be fun to play and can't be called the best map. This doesn't eliminate incomplete maps from being called the best map, but they still have to provide that entertainment value, just in its incomplete state.


I'd say Lethal is more of the best innovator because he's mainly involved in doing conceptual things focused on triggers. And even then all of his work is really just focused greatly on applications of his pixel grid.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 24 2008, 9:35 am by Mayor.

Yes. As in, it greatly helped that I had actually been reading the topic to understand what Farty was saying.

There should be more categories to this.

Most Surprisingly Fun Map/Mod:
Most Innovative Mapper/Modder:
Most Innovative Map/Mod:
Greatest New Concept:
Most Overrated Map: (TS)

If you got an issue with TS, then talk about it elsewhere or blow it out your mapping butt.
When is your Time Down gonna be finished anyway :S...

To Mayor and others, Obviously If I haven't played this crazy good map, I can't nominate it. So, in essence, this thread also pins on the most popular, or, as Kaias would say, overrated map. But yeah, some unfinished maps are way better than many finished maps. There're several RPG's that I couldn't finished, but the unfinished product was really fun already. You could say our ambition made us fail in producing finished map. But again, if Lethal's map aren't being played, then you can hardly expect me to nominate him...

There're lots to a good mapper. Off the top of my head, I can list that a good mapper has to have good: triggering, talent in concept, gameplay, design, presentation, general feel, and patience with mapping, and probably much more... to make a good map. If he doesn't have the patience to finish an rpg (which most don't), then he isn't the "best" mapper, but he'd still be a great one. I voted Tux because he had the patience to make RUSH and Galactic Gunners and Astrogears (tho i hate astrogears b/c it's over the top complicated)... :S... not many ppl can spend so much time in making games like those.

I don't think we need to seperate this into more categories, Kaias, that'd just complicate things... Obviously diff ppl have diff meaning to the phrase "best map". If we further categorize, then we'll never arrive to "the-one-and-only" "greatest" "Majority-approved" "best" map.

And anyway, in the end, it's just our opinions... I bet if I ever get the chance to play Elementa, it'd wow me too. (And I bet if Kaias ever get the chance to seriously play TS, he'll understand why it is so 'overratedly' popular =o.. [at SEN at least..])

You have to admit, the following on TS is ridiculous. I'm mostly just saying that because I'm terrible at TS, and I won't keep up with all the different nuances of each class. Don't worry about it though, it at least raises the Bnet standard, over godawful things like Naruto and Cat and Mouse.

Temple Siege is so ridiculous that you can only describe it and its following on* it* with generalized adjectives such as ridiculous and overrated instead of creating an argument based upon the map. Add the fact that you've admitted you're terrible at it to destroy your own credibility into the mix...

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 24 2008, 9:14 pm by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: ^on it

I didn't say that Temple Siege was ridiculous, or that the followers themselves were, but that the following on it is. That is to say that there is an enormous fanbase for it. I never said the game was poorly constructed or designed, that it wasn't well-made or balanced. And my skill is comparative, I don't spend all day learning all the facets, tactics and counters of every class and against every other class per class. I don't have to an obsessive player to form a valid opinion on a game. I don't have to be a Korean Melee Pro to tell you that the SC melee balance and design is incredible.

It's blasphemous to oppose the cult, apparently.

Lolicious debate