It doesn't. The lack of attendence is disturbing -- I say we move mod night to Wednesday.

The lack of attendance was due to me not being there due to it being Fungus. When it comes to Mod Night, I get shit done. I annoy people until they sign on. And I don't see how moving it to a school night would help anyone.

silly kiddies and your school

I can't play on Saturday for a very specific reason - I play SS on Saturday with the SA/CC noobs. Same with friday.

Quote from A_of-s_t[MM]

It doesn't. The lack of attendence is disturbing -- I say we move mod night to Wednesday.

Wednesdays are good nights because ppl (Voy) aren't out partying. Then again weekends allows users in different time zones to stay up late etc.

Quote from Excalibur[MM]

When it comes to Mod Night, I get shit done. I annoy people until they sign on.

Ya, you're a real dick when it comes to mod night.

Quote from IskatuMesk

I can't play on Saturday for a very specific reason...

Have you ever attended a modnight and played another members mod?

Once or twice at most. I am generally uninterested in playing other people's mods. But I'd be willing to try some if I had the time.

Most of the mods lack custom AI and so that is big points against them for me.

Wednesday is the best day because it IS a school night, which means everyone is already home.

And I've played Iskatu in AO a few mod nights in a row.

Quote from bajadulce[MM]

Quote from Excalibur[MM]

When it comes to Mod Night, I get shit done. I annoy people until they sign on.

Ya, you're a real dick when it comes to mod night.

I'm here to get shit done, popularity is secondary. I leave that to Voy.

Quote from IskatuMesk

Most of the mods lack custom AI and so that is big points against them for me.

Mod Night should be primarily PvP. As much as I love computer opponents, ppl should play vs computers on their own single-player time when there are no games available. PM, AA, STF, AR, CU, OR are all just "OK" vs. computer, but can't be touched PvP! I only wish modders would include some UMS maps that involved a computer "AI". AI doesn't have to be limited to a custom ai script ran in the same old boring melee structure we've all played a million times. A good UMS computer game would be new spice to some of these "aiscript.bin-less" mods. Probably a hell of a lot funner than a melee Ai too. I will agree that compstomps are well suited for players separated by huge skill differences tho.

Quote from A_of-s_t[MM]

Wednesday is the best day because it IS a school night, which means everyone is already home

Wednesday makes sense when you put it that way. Timezone differences could cause some havoc with some parents tho. School kids up at 2am Wed nights as opposed to Sat nite.

Quote from A_of-s_t[MM]

And I've played Iskatu in AO a few mod nights in a row.

Were they AO modnights?

Quote from Excalibur[MM]

I'm here to get shit done, popularity is secondary. I leave that to Voy.

Get-shit-done'rs are popular in my book. Start calling ppl too! A_of_St knows how to get ppls phone #'s.

Yeah; as I said, I am playing a community game night on saturday so I can't play people anyway because you only have one night. So, if a mod doesn't have AI, I don't even look at it.

Quote from IskatuMesk

Yeah; as I said, I am playing a community game night on saturday so I can't play people anyway because you only have one night. So, if a mod doesn't have AI, I don't even look at it.

Why bother taking up MN time with an AI that you can play anytime? It makes no logistical sense. The AI will always be there at all times of day, people however will not. I find absolutely zero enjoyment in playing against AI in most cases anyway. It just isn't fun if I'm not testing myself against another person.

Admittedly Mesk, I've never played your mods, but they've shown me nothing in their threads that would make them worth their download size. None of the models look like they fit in the game, and none of the races seem to go together. The mash up of custom, D2, and misc effects make them as confusing and messy as any kitbashes. And when you then find out how large the file is, and couple that with the fact that most if not all of it's MN matches are against AI, it has about as much appeal as eating broken glass.

Plain and simple Baja had it right, MN should be PvP, and I'm going to make every effort to make it that way week after week as I have already done. I'm not here for credit or epeen when I say that in my time in MM, most mod nights happened or happened on the scale they did because I got people on to play the mod. I still believe that I shouldn't have to, not because I'm lazy or I don't like doing it, (on the contrary I'm doing myself a favor by getting more people to play with,) people should want to come to mod night, they should want to sign on without me pestering them. And because that is not the case as far as I've seen, because some people consider the most trivial things too important to do at some other time than the one night we set aside to do the only thing MM even does as a clan, I am seriously doubting how we're going to hold together when SC2 comes out.

I've never even heard of WC3 modding tools, modders, or mods outside of the SC revolution mod that never got anywhere. Mesk you've said multiple times that WC3 presents a lot of problems for modders, and considering how much the editor can do, no matter how unfriendly it is, the coupling of the two dooms WC3 modding in the same way it will SC2 modding. The editors functionality coupled with the probability of SC2 facing the same problems as WC3 will most likely be the same. And it is a very long shot in the dark for it to be any other way with how things look now.

SC2 isn't going to be the shot in the arm for MM like it is for every other clan. Everything that I do as a modder is going to be made obsolete or editor-based by SC2. People keep saying that no matter what the SC2 editor can do that it wont replace modding. Well I can't agree with those sentiments, in fact, modding is going to become the same thing it is for WC3: making custom models and skins. And that's going to be it. That's the reality of it all. I've already tried my hand at modeling, and I failed epicly. I can't make a flying book or even a flying box. This means that for me, like many I know, we will just become mappers, weather we like it or not.

I know MM isn't like other clans in a lot of ways. And in most respects that's been a good thing. We've seen other clans rise and fall, gain and lose forums on Maplantis and SEN, while we endured. Part of this was due to our lack of other-clan bullshit. But this is a double edged sword. We are so un-clan that we can't keep steady mod night attendance. As said above, most of the time we have attendance at all is when someone, usually me, takes the initiative to 'bother' everyone to signing on.

I don't know where MM is going as a clan, or why we call ourselves a clan, or have any sort of grouping at all. We'd probably get as much done as a bunch of random modders on the same site. The tag and these forums haven't really served any positive purpose other than being amusing and keeping us entertained. Not that that's a bad thing entertainment wise, maybe it held some people here longer than they would have been. Maybe it helped people stay and finish that last mod or two before they went on with real life and things. I wouldn't know, as I have no life, and I am not joking nor ashamed when I say that. This is my life, this username, this persona, this online world is where I live. It is where I have responsibilities, it is where I have communication, it is where I have importance of any sort. And that is probably why I've stayed here. Why I've stayed in this non-clan clan, at this non-mapping/modding mapping and modding site (Reference to all the projects that never get done just in case you didn't catch it.) and continued to participate, mostly in it's off-topic forums.

Mod night is at a decline, MM is at a decline, SEN is definitely at a decline, and I am at a decline in putting up with it anymore. There are persons who know what steps I'm taking to deal with our current situation, they know I am doing everything I can but I lack the talents necessary to be truly effective, and they know that we are a short few weeks away from me either succeeding or failing in this goal. I am starting to doubt even total success will fix some of the problems I've mentioned above, and obviously there's nothing that we can do about SC2 mapping absorbing most of modding. Things will progress however they're going to, and I'm along for the ride, because I have nothing else to do and no better place to go.

tl;dr A lot of stuff I've had on my mind about MN/MM/SEN.

I never said to play comps on mod night holy christ. I said I can't play on mod night because I have other things to do on saturday night; there's no one else to play with, so, derp derp durrrr I need AI to play with in SP.

100meg is not a large file size by any means, either. It's a 3-4 minute download at most for the majority of cheap broadbands out there.

Quote

Admittedly Mesk, I've never played your mods, but they've shown me nothing in their threads that would make them worth their download size. None of the models look like they fit in the game, and none of the races seem to go together. The mash up of custom, D2, and misc effects make them as confusing and messy as any kitbashes. And when you then find out how large the file is, and couple that with the fact that most if not all of it's MN matches are against AI, it has about as much appeal as eating broken glass.

Fair enough; that's AO which is only of the only mods I've ever used diablo graphics in. Yeah, they look out of place. That's what happens when you aren't a commercial modeler and you need custom characters. Kitbashes look much worse, though. I've seen all but 3-4 decent kitbashes in this entire community. None of my files are too large; get a decent internet or don't complain. Period. Not a single person I know scoffed at the 4gb size of 2042 and I don't know a single person besides you and thunderaga who second guess downloading a 100 meg mod when you're all software pirates and youtube whores. I don't give a fuck. If you don't want to download it, then don't download it, but when you start crying about the file size which is insignificant you come off as a moron.

I don't care if you don't like AO. I know most people won't find it to their liking. It's a proof of concept and a technical demonstration. But that is all your comment is; an attempt to overstate your disliking of a specific mod and then attempting to extend that to the other projects you've never even touched. I find it appalling you classify every single mod I've ever created in 10 years as exactly the same as AO. Either you're narrow-minded, ignorant, or emotionally drunk and need to sit down and think for a minute before posting this kind of garbage. I don't post often on SEN and I'm leaving as soon as AO is done - exactly for this reason. Out of all of the disrespect and narrow-minded stupidity I've had to deal with, it is here I have endured the most of it. I am sick to death of people like you. You're everywhere, in every freaking site and community in existence.

Quote

and couple that with the fact that most if not all of it's MN matches are against AI, it has about as much appeal as eating broken glass.

As I recall, every game in ITAS and HK were against people. Either state that you're talking about AO or cease talking out of your ass.

The attitude of some of the people here is pathetic, a further reason why I don't play with you. You have no respect and are little more than children who whine when someone tries something different. Some of the people around here are very nice and supportive, and I find it unfortunate that they're limited to this end of the community and haven't been able to open up to more mature, older, and organized communities before they started dying off. Many of your veteran modders have left you, and this is exactly why. I will be next, and I won't be looking back.

Quote

I've never even heard of WC3 modding tools, modders, or mods outside of the SC revolution mod that never got anywhere. Mesk you've said multiple times that WC3 presents a lot of problems for modders, and considering how much the editor can do, no matter how unfriendly it is, the coupling of the two dooms WC3 modding in the same way it will SC2 modding. The editors functionality coupled with the probability of SC2 facing the same problems as WC3 will most likely be the same. And it is a very long shot in the dark for it to be any other way with how things look now.

You're right - modding in wc3 is virtually non-existent. All custom content ever produced has been solely for maps and is of such low quality that it generally isn't worth using. Wc3 is extremely hostile to a mod environment for more reasons than I'll go into. But lets just say that unless you have an extremely strong grip of JASS, 3ds max 5 (the only version of max supported by blizzard's tools), and a variety of other programs, you won't even get off the ground. If you think a 100 meg SC mod is big, you have no idea how large a significant wc3 mod can get. A gig is easily attainable.

SC2 will be even more demanding. You will need incredibly powerful hardware to run custom maps much less a demanding mod.

Quote

I know MM isn't like other clans in a lot of ways. And in most respects that's been a good thing. We've seen other clans rise and fall, gain and lose forums on Maplantis and SEN, while we endured. Part of this was due to our lack of other-clan bullshit. But this is a double edged sword. We are so un-clan that we can't keep steady mod night attendance. As said above, most of the time we have attendance at all is when someone, usually me, takes the initiative to 'bother' everyone to signing on.

Well, guess what? Ricky has run Firebat Friday (that died years ago) and SS (wc3) longer than SEN has existed. Years and years and years. And yes, he personally pesters every single person every single day. It's a labor of love; if you don't like it, you aren't cut out for it. People are generally lazy and reluctant, which is why you need a schedule that fits everyone that is consented upon. MM's modnight is much less organized than our game nights are, and that isn't because our game nights are organized - it's because you're trying to just randomly choose mods at the last moment, you don't have dedicated hosters to my knowledge, and you seem to have a lot of problems with just getting connections and shit out. I tried helping you out and suggesting courses of actions but like everything else I've ever said it's just ignored and taken out of context.

I'm not a part of your clan. I'm not a part of your community. I am tired of the hostility and I am tired of the bullshit. If you guys really don't care to play AO, that's fine. I'm not telling you to. I'll take my business back to the shadows where I came from and no one will ever hear of me or speak of me again. When AO's complete, my days of modding are over for good. I have nothing to lose by saying goodbye if you want me to.

I'd just like to point on Mesk I wasn't trying to directly make an attack at your or imply you responsibility for anything you didn't create. Quite frankly the only mod of yours I ever hear about is AO and that is AI focused hence my gripes. The rest is general discontent with MM and mainly SEN, which I am doing something about.

I'd also like to state that I've been up 20 something hours and this has been one bad day, and I'm sorry that my poor state is slipping over here into SEN, however I still think some of those things needed to be said, albeit maybe in a more polite manner.

Ex, mod nights are not an obligation. All of your comments (everyone) of we're at a decline and all that jazz are just disgusting. We've always been at a decline. The reason we don't die it's because we've never made mods and will never need to. Sure we've had some members that have made a couple of mods and they have been a nice addition but the point of Clan [MM] is to promote modding, to make the community grow, and you don't make the modding community grow by making mods yourself.
That is why voyager's and my admittance guidelines have always been what they are, "You only have to show dedication to modding".

There's a lot of people that have shown more dedication to modding than you. You say you do everything possible to keep mod nights alive, I guess you could be right, but all I see is you crediting yourself for that. No other member in the clan plays the "omg X thing is alive bcuz of mah". You do it for yourself, don't try to act like you do it for the sake of the community because if it was that way then your attitude would be different.

There's a lot of people that like AO, if you really did it for the community you'd suck it up like anyone else does with your mods (not that there's anything wrong with them) and play it. Many people like Fungus so you should suck it up and host it anyway, got my point now?

Mods with custom models are always a surprise, I'll quote Hercanic here:

Quote

Custom graphics are to make your mod unique, what's the point letting anyone else having the same graphics?

What that means is that mods like that aren't supposed to be SC. That's why, in the pure form, they are mods, because they're not SC, duh.
Mesk mods are part of his own universe in his own twisted corrupted mind, there's no need to bash them. Polaris' mods don't fit SC either and you say nothing about them.


Many of the things that you mentioned that are wrong you have contributed in, so don't come with a long ass boring post that I am forced to reply before it becomes a flame wars.
Sofia is broken and I don't know when I'll be able to connect again. So when I come back I sure don't wanna see this negativism and this turned into flame wars.

This topic is about discussing saturday mod nights, not clan affairs, not sen affairs or anything else. This is to discuss how awesome mods night was, and if it was extremly awesome then we make a topic for the night itself. Do you people realise how bad would [MM] look if someone from other community came here and saw this?

Another community? It looks bad even to me...

Quote from Corbo[MM]

Ex, mod nights are not an obligation.

Wasn't my point. The fact that I have to 'bother' people shows we need to work on mod nights being more attractive.

Quote

All of your comments (everyone) of we're at a decline and all that jazz are just disgusting.

And that's my fault? I'm calling it as I see it.

Quote

We've always been at a decline.

I disagree. Early on in v4 (Way before Maplantis) [MM] was THE clan, everyone was regulars/elites and generally awesome. Then at Maplantis we did awesome. After that shit went to hell.

Quote

The reason we don't die it's because we've never made mods and will never need to.

What?

Quote

Sure we've had some members that have made a couple of mods and they have been a nice addition but the point of Clan [MM] is to promote modding, to make the community grow, and you don't make the modding community grow by making mods yourself.

So everyone should stop modding and get other people into modding who should in turn not mod and get other people into modding and no one ever finishes anything but knows how to do it. Sounds great.

Quote

There's a lot of people that have shown more dedication to modding than you. You say you do everything possible to keep mod nights alive, I guess you could be right, but all I see is you crediting yourself for that.

Obviously they have. Look at Pol, at LA, at Voy, Ermac. I already said I want credit for nothing, but I'd like people to at least realize that that is what goes on. That I do bust my ass to get MN together some nights. Its like no one gives a shit if MN happens or not. I don't think thats right. MN is MM's baby, we should be worried if it isn't doing well. We should want to fix that. Its a representation of us just like this forum that you're worried about someone coming in here and seeing this. Aren't you worried about when they come and see our MN with a grand total of 3 people?

Quote

No other member in the clan plays the "omg X thing is alive bcuz of mah". You do it for yourself, don't try to act like you do it for the sake of the community because if it was that way then your attitude would be different.

I'm not playing any card here Corbo, I'm concerned.

Quote

There's a lot of people that like AO, if you really did it for the community you'd suck it up like anyone else does with your mods (not that there's anything wrong with them) and play it.

Nonsense. There's plenty wrong with AO and plenty wrong with my mods. I'm not asking people to attend every MN and play every mod. And this is why we have voting BUT WAIT no one votes, because no one seems to care. Again, I am concerned about this. I want to know why I want to change that I want to fix it.

Quote

Many people like Fungus so you should suck it up and host it anyway, got my point now?

See above.

Quote

Mods with custom models are always a surprise, I'll quote Hercanic here:

Quote

Custom graphics are to make your mod unique, what's the point letting anyone else having the same graphics?

What that means is that mods like that aren't supposed to be SC. That's why, in the pure form, they are mods, because they're not SC, duh.

If you're going to make something look entirely different from SC you're going to have to change EVERYTHING to fit with that instead. I do not enjoy mods that look like everything comes from a different universe. It's silly, messy, and ruins immersion and fun.

Quote

Mesk mods are part of his own universe in his own twisted corrupted mind, there's no need to bash them. Polaris' mods don't fit SC either and you say nothing about them.

Actually Pol's 3d skills were used in OI, which had just about everything, including its terrain redone to try and create a better, more fitting, complete, and immersive universe. I applaud it as what everyone who uses custom models should try to achieve.

Quote

Many of the things that you mentioned that are wrong you have contributed in, so don't come with a long ass boring post that I am forced to reply before it becomes a flame wars.
Sofia is broken and I don't know when I'll be able to connect again. So when I come back I sure don't wanna see this negativism and this turned into flame wars.

There is no flaming here, none at all. I am concerned about this clan and about our mod nights and I will express this concern because I give a shit. Even if you don't. I'm sorry about Sofia. I'd help you if I could.

Quote

This topic is about discussing saturday mod nights, not clan affairs, not sen affairs or anything else. This is to discuss how awesome mods night was, and if it was extremly awesome then we make a topic for the night itself. Do you people realise how bad would [MM] look if someone from other community came here and saw this?

I realize how bad it looks outside this topic and outside this forum. It should be no surprise when they find this here. I did my best to focus on mod night in this reply, so I hope it is on topic enough for you. If not feel free to edit out the off topic parts and even PM me about them if you'd like. But I am not going to take these issues lying down like everyone else seems to be fine with doing.

Your ball.

Quote from Excalibur[MM]

Quote

Mesk mods are part of his own universe in his own twisted corrupted mind, there's no need to bash them. Polaris' mods don't fit SC either and you say nothing about them.

Actually Pol's 3d skills were used in OI, which had just about everything, including its terrain redone to try and create a better, more fitting, complete, and immersive universe. I applaud it as what everyone who uses custom models should try to achieve.

Polaris's mod may have been a complete total conversion, but it still lacked something: fun. IO, Ad Astras, and the majority of mods hosted at SEN are boring. Why would anyone build huge ships only to get the unclimactic single laser fire that one would expect from a unmodded wraith? I like my mods innovative, and the only ones that seem innovative are the ones at BWAI.

Quote from A_of-s_t[MM]

Quote from Excalibur[MM]

Quote

Mesk mods are part of his own universe in his own twisted corrupted mind, there's no need to bash them. Polaris' mods don't fit SC either and you say nothing about them.

Actually Pol's 3d skills were used in OI, which had just about everything, including its terrain redone to try and create a better, more fitting, complete, and immersive universe. I applaud it as what everyone who uses custom models should try to achieve.

Polaris's mod may have been a complete total conversion, but it still lacked something: fun. IO, Ad Astras, and the majority of mods hosted at SEN are boring. Why would anyone build huge ships only to get the unclimactic single laser fire that one would expect from a unmodded wraith? I like my mods innovative, and the only ones that seem innovative are the ones at BWAI.

OI was exciting enough and fun enough for me. I did most of the testing with Pol. I do wish his siege tank replacement wasn't buggy as it was one of the most epic ships I've ever seen, not visually, but conceptually how it worked and all.

I usually hate your mods because they're so small and boring, even if CvH was 'innovative' it still wasn't fun. I actually thought Temptation was great, like epicly great, but it really needs to be finished/polished. It felt like a Mesk-idea-for-an-epic-mod that was incomplete. I imagined it to have like 5 complete tiers per race and be wholly epic. Maybe that's too ambitious or just not possible within SC's limits but it really had that much potential going for it. I'd love to play it again, this saturday, next saturday, any saturday.

I'll admit I'm guilty of boring weapons and such but that's due to my inability to iscript coupled with IceCCs refusal to work on nearly any machine I've had in my time modding.

I don't have time to quote a gazillion messages so I'm just going to say what I have to say and step back into the shadows.

1: Ex is right with the point of MM and mod night at a decline. Even if he does occasionally force mods down people's throats, at least he does actually get people to play, and I suppose that's better than nothing.

2: OI was a horrible mod, it was unfinished, not fun, and I finally gave up on any hope for it after a while. I can't possibly see why people like it, but whatever. The game wasn't mean for SC's engine. It would be fabulous on Homeworld 2's engine, or something close to it.
And Ex- at least A_of_st's mods were trying something different, instead of the normal build base, mass units, and kill enemy trend with most mods we have these days. Not saying the trend is necessarily bad, it just gets old after a while when all mods play the same with just a different set of units.

3: As to the point of MM being solely to encourage modding: This is correct. We want to encourage modding, but how are we going to encourage it when we aren't active, and never finish anything? Only about a quarter of us are active modders. Now, if I were a noob coming in to SEN, there's no way I'd feel like trying modding because of:
A: So few new mod projects are ever started, showing there's little interest in them.
B: The supposed "clan of modders" hardly does crap.
And C: People hardly play them. The only event where we play mods is Mod Night, and since that's pretty much dead as of lately, I doubt anyone would have the motivation to make a new mod if nobody plays it. All this together totally kills any motivation in a newbie modder, and heck, even veteran modders too. I have to admit, modding isn't as great as it used to be a while back.

We have to encourage modding by making mods, being active, and playing the damn things once in a while. You can't expect many people to take an interest in modding when there's no fruits to their labor. Though, there is the occasional person who does it because they want to, like me, Iskatu, and a few others, but I doubt new people coming in would feel the same way.

I suppose the main point here is that if we are active as a clan, playing mods, having fun making them, people will see that modding isn't "that totally boring thing that has barely any support or interest in." More interest will flare up, and things will start coming back to the way they were a year or so ago.

*Creeps back into shadows to watch the ongoing [MM] civil war*

I always wondered how you people tricked yourselves into believing that Orid Ibanna was a more than half-decent mod.

The terrain was pretty impressive, though.

IO's terrain was the best, that's it. Sorry.

Iskatu's mods are pew pew laser fun, that's it. Sorry (with Canadian accent).

Temptation and CvH and Winter's Conquest were never finished. Sorry.

All other mods are boring. Not sorry about that.