No one sits through briefings. Everyone begs and whines for a skip beacon when I add in-game tutorials. Everyone uses skip beacons when I add them, thus defeating the point of tutorials in the first place. Using random tips during gameplay annoy players, but do seem to slowly get some information across (though only randomly). And of course, trial and error learning doesn't work well for complex maps since players (especially newer ones) can get too intimidated from the onset to bother sticking around long enough to learn.

I'm looking at a mixture of something like context-based mini-tutorials for each element as the player encounters them and random tips to cover all the nuances. Still, do any of you have any creative specific tips for introducing players to maps? Like from things you've seen or used in other maps? I could use a few extra ideas.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Sep 14 2007, 1:21 am by Tuxedo-Templar.

You're right. Typically, briefings don't work, and people just skip in-game tutorials.

Random in-game tips, as you noted, are an options, but they don't always get the point across either, and tend to annoy people.

The only advice I can offer is to ease it in to the complexity. Say.. make it semi-simple at the beginning. Your map, R.U.S.H., does that. All you have to do is swarm the enemies, there is even a simple tutorial that shows you how to shoot. Then, as you get further into the map, you can purchase upgrades, get passwords for later in the game, etc., and all this information is relayed to you if you just look around and try things.

It seems like these days all of the Battle.net players have the IQ of an eight year old. Even these "complex" maps, to be honest, aren't that hard if you just pay attention. Oh well, enough ranting from me.

As a side note, are you asking this because you have a map idea that is particularly complex and you want to know how to get pubbies to enjoy it?

More like I already have a map that's fairly complex. It ought to work, though, if only I can get people to actually learn it.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 14 2007, 1:47 am by Tuxedo-Templar.

You guys underestimate trial and error. According to studies, first impressions are made within 4 minutes, people start judging you after 10 seconds, so if your map isn't kick ass within the first few minutes of it, they wont remake it even if they know how to play. Making an addictive game, with a tip when they lose, and a tip at the start (random) they will learn more stuff, they will remake your map (each remake furthers your knowledge) and generally get better.

I could add some badass intro cutscene or something, but most repeat players, just like with in-game tutorials, will want to end up skipping that stuff. But I suppose if the players are hooked with it initially, and then start getting into the gameplay, they'll learn to put up with it. But still, either way I lose because then I'll just go back to getting whining about having no skip option for an intro.

Just have a tutorial with a skip option. Who cares if people skip it. If the noobs really want to learn to play the game, they'll keep playing it. No one understands tutorials or hints or instructions anyway during their first game.

But really you can do any kind of method you want to introduce the gameplay, but if there's no skip option then I say don't do it. Excluding an option to skip would just annoy the people who are familiar with the game and overall that's bad, especially once people start playing privately with people who already know how to play.

And really, the best way for people to learn is just to play it themselves and learn as they play while having others explain.

Well, I could probably manage a way to give players their cake and let them eat it too (durr analogies), but it'll have a price.

But then again, new players are always gonna suck, so I suppose I'll let them suck. I could at least hand-hold them through a basic aspect of the gameplay for the start, though.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 18 2007, 10:16 pm by Esponeo. Reason: Removed a Response to a Deleted Post

Well I still don't know quite what I'm going to do to solve this problem, but any way I cut it it looks like it's gonna take me a huge block of time to do it.

I wish people were just psychic lol.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 18 2007, 10:17 pm by Esponeo. Reason: Removed a Response to a Deleted Post

Not including a tutorial and just using the good old briefing would solve the problem. If people skip it that's their problem.

A suggestion I have, which I implemented into my current map.
There is an in game help, which explains the stuff you could not figure out just by looking.
It is completely optional, but it also replays as much as you want, if you just select it again.
With all that said, the complexity isn't that great, the map is more of a standard RPG.
But, I think most people would rather the game start and then they have the "freedom" to learn on their own.
The wait times and the display text can be rather chaotic if you are not ready for it, or even know its coming.
The ability to replay a tutorial in my mind is huge.

If people skip it they're most likely screwed. Or at the very least won't know where to go next, or end up doing shit that'll make the game boring/frustrating. Not having some kind of instruction just isn't going to work. You ought to know my maps by now.

I don't doubt it'll be playable and fun once people do get into it, though. But to tone down the complexity is to sever what makes the map something new in the first place, which to me defeats the point in making it.


I just have to beat it into their heads somehow.
You mean add an "explain this" thing for each element in the map? Not a bad idea. That might be better than the automatic context stuff I had in mind, in fact. If people don't end up being too dumb to know how to use it, at least.

I sorta already have that for the purchase stuff, but I'll have to think of a way to add it for the other stuff. Might not work with some elements, though (like stuff going on out in the middle of the game, etc.)

Instead of making them re-make everytime, how about just making it so if they lose within X amount of time, it restarts everything? This way they can keep at it until they get it...

Well, it's a potentially longer duration game, but I'll consider that.

Still, how will the map get to spread if it doesn't get remade? It's like being celibate: It might make your life easier/simpler, but you get no children to continue your line. Or something.



If I end up make any more of these analogies tonight one of you has got to start beating me up k?

Here's what I plan on doing in Mystic Islands RPG:

At the start of the map, you really can't do anything, but you still have a unit and for my map you start out in a ship. While in the ship you will get a mix of gameplay instructions and storyline, making the players pretty much have to read it, but they still get something interesting out of it (the storyline).

I think that is the best way to do it, don't give them tips while they are playing, as they don't want to focus at that point, and if you try to give them at the start without making it interesting, the players lose interest and find the map boring. So pretty much, you have to give tips when they aren't actually doing anything, and make sure that there is a reason the players would want to read the information.

So I should smuggle the tutorial into the story/narrative somehow? Interesting idea. Like how blizzard introduces terran medics on on the second terran compaign or the corsairs on the third protoss campaign. I'm not sure I have a narrative that will quite work for that, but that doesn't mean I can't make up some stuff to fit it in.

Basically, you don't give the big technical explanation, you make it seem like it just fits into the storyline, and of course, if the storyline moves throughout the whole game, you can keep giving new information when the player hits new objectives that need the information.

Like maybe having a commander tell the player to look out for such and such and use such and such to counter such and such (and such).


Yeah, I'll think on that. But my options for adding real story stuff to cover everything are limited due to the nature of the map.

I think the best way for us to come up with a good way to ease players into a map is for you to tell us a little about the map first. That way the suggestions can be more applicable to your map.

Here's where I pull a big fat blizzard and say "when its done".

No. I really want to get this one right for once. Not gonna bother revealing it until it is/if it is.



Generic advise is all I really need for now. Specifics I can handle.

But look at Blizzard and SC2, they have a whole site showing screenshots and giving info about the units as they make them, and they have a whole forum section at battle.net for SC2 discussion!