[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War]The war in South Ossetia[/url] has begun. Georgia seems to be very agressive towards civilans: Civilan regions are being destroyed by rocket attacks (the main hospital in Tskhinvali got attacked, and now, obviously, can't be used to help the wounded), fugitives are not granted a safe route to exit the war zone by the Georgian side (one was created for several hours, but it lead to Georgia anyway, so nobody used it - information from some reporter). Now, we all know that Saakashvili (Georgia's president, if you didn't know) is a puppet of the US (he was greatly supported by the US when he was rising to power)... But what I cannot understand is the real reason(s) of the war. I have three assumptions, all of which may (or may not) be true: A. The war was the will of the US. If it was planned by the US, they probably knew that Russia will intervene (and perhaps to what degree?). This means that this will not be another Blitzkrieg; rather it will create long-lasting instability in the region. Of what use is an unstable region? I have only one assumption: to fuck up the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sochi]Sochi[/url] Olympiade in 2014. This is a bit extreme though, so this version doesen't sound very realistic. B. Saakashvili did it for some internal reasons, like the need/desire to control all of Georgia's territory. There can be many other reasons we are unaware of. C. Since pressure was building up for some time before the real war began, it is possible that South Ossetia really provocated Georgia in the first place (like it is said in Wikipedia). Any thoughts on who actually gains something from this bullshit?

The war in South Ossetia has begun. Georgia seems to be very agressive towards civilans: Civilan regions are being destroyed by rocket attacks (the main hospital in Tskhinvali got attacked, and now, obviously, can't be used to help the wounded), fugitives are not granted a safe route to exit the war zone by the Georgian side (one was created for several hours, but it lead to Georgia anyway, so nobody used it - information from some reporter).

Now, we all know that Saakashvili (Georgia's president, if you didn't know) is a puppet of the US (he was greatly supported by the US when he was rising to power)... But what I cannot understand is the real reason(s) of the war. I have three assumptions, all of which may (or may not) be true:

A. The war was the will of the US. If it was planned by the US, they probably knew that Russia will intervene (and perhaps to what degree?). This means that this will not be another Blitzkrieg; rather it will create long-lasting instability in the region. Of what use is an unstable region? I have only one assumption: to fuck up the Sochi Olympiade in 2014. This is a bit extreme though, so this version doesen't sound very realistic.

B. Saakashvili did it for some internal reasons, like the need/desire to control all of Georgia's territory. There can be many other reasons we are unaware of.

C. Since pressure was building up for some time before the real war began, it is possible that South Ossetia really provocated Georgia in the first place (like it is said in Wikipedia).

Any thoughts on who actually gains something from this bullshit?

I've been trying to follow this conflict, but it's disgustinly be drowned out by the Olympics and the John Edwards affair. From my assumption, Georgia invaded the province to retake it and Russia retaliated on the province on the side of the seccesionists. Amazing how this has next to no news coverage...

I've been trying to follow this conflict, but it's disgustinly be drowned out by the Olympics and the John Edwards affair. From my assumption, Georgia invaded the province to retake it and Russia retaliated on the province on the side of the seccesionists. Amazing how this has next to no news coverage...

[quote=name:WoAHorde]I've been trying to follow this conflict, but it's disgustinly be drowned out by the Olympics and the John Edwards affair. From my assumption, Georgia invaded the province to retake it and Russia retaliated on the province on the side of the seccesionists. Amazing how this has next to no news coverage...[/quote] I watched BBC to get information from multiple sources, and all they seem to have about this conflict is a little line of text in the bottom during other programms. Not to mention that they only state well-known facts such as "Georgia's president accuses Russia of genocide", "Russia accuses Georgia of Genocide". It seems like they don't have any reporters on-place in there (I tend to trust those a bit more). I've heard information that the Georgian special forces units are slaughtering civilans that are hiding in basements by throwing grenades in those shelters (unconfirmed). I guess Saakashvili decided to totaly eliminate South Ossetians, or destroy their cities to a point where living in them would be basically impossible.

Quote from WoAHorde[MM]

I've been trying to follow this conflict, but it's disgustinly be drowned out by the Olympics and the John Edwards affair. From my assumption, Georgia invaded the province to retake it and Russia retaliated on the province on the side of the seccesionists. Amazing how this has next to no news coverage...

I watched BBC to get information from multiple sources, and all they seem to have about this conflict is a little line of text in the bottom during other programms. Not to mention that they only state well-known facts such as "Georgia's president accuses Russia of genocide", "Russia accuses Georgia of Genocide". It seems like they don't have any reporters on-place in there (I tend to trust those a bit more).

I've heard information that the Georgian special forces units are slaughtering civilans that are hiding in basements by throwing grenades in those shelters (unconfirmed). I guess Saakashvili decided to totaly eliminate South Ossetians, or destroy their cities to a point where living in them would be basically impossible.

Well, Saakashvili seems to me like either a rather stupid nationalist who thinks he could keep South Ossetia as part of Georgia via war or someone trying to weaken Russia by bringing other powers into the war, which isn't really working out. Also making him rather stupid. Here's from Saak himself; trying to get other powers into the war: [quote]It concerns not only Georgia -it concerns the U.S. and its values. We are a freedom-loving country which is being attacked[/quote] Apparently, the death toll in South Ossetia is about 2000 people. Many have fled to southern Russia (30000) or other parts of Georgia such as North Ossetia. I just checked again, Abkhazia also started a war with Georgia. Abkhazia is largely, like South Ossetia, trying to break away from Georgia. Seeing the offensive on SO, they must have decided they're next and struck first. 'Today it's South Ossetia, tomorrow it might be Abkhazia' from its president. And, of course, everyone else, from Condo Rice to UN representatives and NATO representatives and country's presidents and all that are 'Very concerned' about this conflict and have all called for a 'Ceasefire and a beginning of direct talks'. Kind of sad, that no one has any imagination. Here's from ole' Bushy: [quote]I’m deeply concerned about the situation in Georgia. The attacks are occurring in regions of Georgia far from the zone of conflict in South Ossetia. They mark a dangerous escalation in the crisis. The violence is endangering regional peace, civilian lives have been lost and others are endangered. We have urged an immediate halt to the violence and a stand-down by all troops. We call for an end to the Russian bombings, and a return by the parties to the status quo of August 6.[/quote] I also caught a lot about how the US was supporting Georgia and is still telling Russia to leave and 'respect Georgia's territorial integrity'. Which I found humorous and extremely hypocritical, since Georgia had started the war against SO's territorial integrity... yeah. Also, I found this: [quote]The conflict over Georgia’s breakaway republic is as much about information as it is about weapons. South Ossetia's press service claims Western media outlets can't be trusted because they haven't been operating in the region ”since the conflict began”. “Only the Russian media and one Ukrainian channel have been filming in the breakaway republic. No western camera crews have been working in the conflict zone,” Suslan Bekoev, South Ossetian committee for information and press, said.[/quote] Oh, and I found this on BBC, which made me lol: [quote][b]GEORGIA[/b] Total personnel: 26,900 Main battle tanks (T-72): 82 <-- [color=#CE091D]Russian-made, outdated T-72[/color] Armoured personnel carriers: 139 Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven <-- [color=#CE091D]Russian-made, outdated Sukhoi-25[/color] Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95 [b]RUSSIA[/b] Total personnel: 641,000 Main battle tanks (various): 6,717 Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388 Combat aircraft (various): 1,206 Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550[/quote]

Well, Saakashvili seems to me like either a rather stupid nationalist who thinks he could keep South Ossetia as part of Georgia via war or someone trying to weaken Russia by bringing other powers into the war, which isn't really working out. Also making him rather stupid.

Here's from Saak himself; trying to get other powers into the war:

Quote

It concerns not only Georgia -it concerns the U.S. and its values. We are a freedom-loving country which is being attacked

Apparently, the death toll in South Ossetia is about 2000 people. Many have fled to southern Russia (30000) or other parts of Georgia such as North Ossetia.

I just checked again, Abkhazia also started a war with Georgia. Abkhazia is largely, like South Ossetia, trying to break away from Georgia. Seeing the offensive on SO, they must have decided they're next and struck first. 'Today it's South Ossetia, tomorrow it might be Abkhazia' from its president.

And, of course, everyone else, from Condo Rice to UN representatives and NATO representatives and country's presidents and all that are 'Very concerned' about this conflict and have all called for a 'Ceasefire and a beginning of direct talks'. Kind of sad, that no one has any imagination. Here's from ole' Bushy:

Quote

I’m deeply concerned about the situation in Georgia.
The attacks are occurring in regions of Georgia far from the zone of conflict in South Ossetia. They mark a dangerous escalation in the crisis.
The violence is endangering regional peace, civilian lives have been lost and others are endangered. We have urged an immediate halt to the violence and a stand-down by all troops. We call for an end to the Russian bombings, and a return by the parties to the status quo of August 6.

I also caught a lot about how the US was supporting Georgia and is still telling Russia to leave and 'respect Georgia's territorial integrity'. Which I found humorous and extremely hypocritical, since Georgia had started the war against SO's territorial integrity... yeah. Also, I found this:

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The conflict over Georgia’s breakaway republic is as much about information as it is about weapons. South Ossetia's press service claims Western media outlets can't be trusted because they haven't been operating in the region ”since the conflict began”.

“Only the Russian media and one Ukrainian channel have been filming in the breakaway republic. No western camera crews have been working in the conflict zone,” Suslan Bekoev, South Ossetian committee for information and press, said.

Oh, and I found this on BBC, which made me lol:

Quote

GEORGIA
Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82 <-- Russian-made, outdated T-72
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven <-- Russian-made, outdated Sukhoi-25
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95
RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550

Regarding the US supporting Georgia: Officially, they're totally right (strange as it may sound), because South Ossetia is not an independant country de jure. However, a referendum showed that more than 99% of South Ossetians support the split, so it's time to call Souht Ossetia an independant country de facto.

Regarding the US supporting Georgia: Officially, they're totally right (strange as it may sound), because South Ossetia is not an independant country de jure. However, a referendum showed that more than 99% of South Ossetians support the split, so it's time to call Souht Ossetia an independant country de facto.

The Kosovo thing went fully against those laws as well, and western countries supported that. Hypocrites :omfg:. The Kosovo set a full precedent for what's happening and Abkhazia and South Ossetia doing whatever the hell they want. I found this nice little article on the issue: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1831073,00.html What else pisses me off? I've seen 'news articles' which say that an unnamed US senator partially blames Georgia for the war - what the hell? It's 100% their fault. Look at the damn timeline, you retarded bureaucrats.

The Kosovo thing went fully against those laws as well, and western countries supported that. Hypocrites . The Kosovo set a full precedent for what's happening and Abkhazia and South Ossetia doing whatever the hell they want.

I found this nice little article on the issue: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1831073,00.html

What else pisses me off? I've seen 'news articles' which say that an unnamed US senator partially blames Georgia for the war - what the hell? It's 100% their fault. Look at the damn timeline, you retarded bureaucrats.

I think Georgia had every right. In America, did we not have a civil war when the south wanted to separate from the north? Of course, both sides had their supporters due to the benefits of the winner could bring them. The American revolution as well. And it's like that in every civil war. We only want to backup the people who we benefit from winning. Just like Russia is doing by being against Georgia. I think we should leave well enough alone unless it is [b]really [/b]to our benefit to back up either the seceding or main government who wants to keep their lands their lands.

I think Georgia had every right.
In America, did we not have a civil war when the south wanted to separate from the north? Of course, both sides had their supporters due to the benefits of the winner could bring them. The American revolution as well. And it's like that in every civil war.
We only want to backup the people who we benefit from winning. Just like Russia is doing by being against Georgia. I think we should leave well enough alone unless it is really to our benefit to back up either the seceding or main government who wants to keep their lands their lands.

Your argument for Georgia having every right seems to be the same thing as 'Only the strongest survive' or 'It's an animal's world out there' - not an argument at all, by the very definitions of 'right' and 'wrong'. By international law, it depends on your perspective, mainly if South Ossetia you consider it's own state or a subsidiary of Georgia. By precedent... Kosovo, folks!

Your argument for Georgia having every right seems to be the same thing as 'Only the strongest survive' or 'It's an animal's world out there' - not an argument at all, by the very definitions of 'right' and 'wrong'. By international law, it depends on your perspective, mainly if South Ossetia you consider it's own state or a subsidiary of Georgia. By precedent... Kosovo, folks!

We claimed genocide and human rights as a reason for backing Kosovo. I am not sure what advantage we had in doing so though. I thought back then, we should have, again, left well enough alone. It might have been a satisfying the public thing because of the media coverage it got. What really pisses me off is Israel. We had no right carving a nation for them, then defending them as they attacked other countries and the other 100 things they do that is wrong. We look the way so many times it isn't funny. Then we threaten other nations when they do the same. If you want to talk about being hypocritical, you want to talk about Israel. It doesn't matter who regards Ossetia as a state or subsidiary. If Georgia had it in the first place, it is their right to defend it as theirs and do whatever it takes to keep it. If Ossetia wants to secede, they should be willing to fight for what they want.

We claimed genocide and human rights as a reason for backing Kosovo. I am not sure what advantage we had in doing so though. I thought back then, we should have, again, left well enough alone. It might have been a satisfying the public thing because of the media coverage it got.

What really pisses me off is Israel. We had no right carving a nation for them, then defending them as they attacked other countries and the other 100 things they do that is wrong. We look the way so many times it isn't funny. Then we threaten other nations when they do the same. If you want to talk about being hypocritical, you want to talk about Israel.

It doesn't matter who regards Ossetia as a state or subsidiary. If Georgia had it in the first place, it is their right to defend it as theirs and do whatever it takes to keep it. If Ossetia wants to secede, they should be willing to fight for what they want.

Sun Tzu, The Art of War. Go on, they look weak, but when Russia attacks them... no wait, they are weak. [i]Screwed.[/i] When Civil wars happen, most of the time you have equal factions warring. This is like pitting an unarmed civilian in a cage filled with tigers (Live tigers...) You would bring no profit from supporting Georgia because it is small, and hell, risking a war with Russia is deadly; not to mention internation side projects... The least Georgia could do is report to the UN. Although quick question, is there even a Georgian representative [i]in[/i] the UN?

Sun Tzu, The Art of War.

Go on, they look weak, but when Russia attacks them... no wait, they are weak. Screwed.

When Civil wars happen, most of the time you have equal factions warring. This is like pitting an unarmed civilian in a cage filled with tigers (Live tigers...)
You would bring no profit from supporting Georgia because it is small, and hell, risking a war with Russia is deadly; not to mention internation side projects...

The least Georgia could do is report to the UN. Although quick question, is there even a Georgian representative in the UN?

[quote=Suslan Bekoev, South Ossetian committee for information and press]Only the Russian media and one Ukrainian channel have been filming in the breakaway republic. No western camera crews have been working in the conflict zone.[/quote] [quote=Grigory Karasin, Minister of Foreign Affairs for Russia ]Western media is a well-organized machine, which is showing only those pictures which fit in well with their thoughts. We find it very difficult to squeeze our opinion in the pages of their newspapers[/quote] We don't have cameras in there, we don't use all the footage that is shown in the footage taken. Don't judge.

Quote from Suslan Bekoev, South Ossetian committee for information and press

Only the Russian media and one Ukrainian channel have been filming in the breakaway republic. No western camera crews have been working in the conflict zone.

Quote from Grigory Karasin, Minister of Foreign Affairs for Russia

Western media is a well-organized machine, which is showing only those pictures which fit in well with their thoughts. We find it very difficult to squeeze our opinion in the pages of their newspapers

We don't have cameras in there, we don't use all the footage that is shown in the footage taken. Don't judge.

IP, have you ever heard of the 6 Day War? Israel didn't start any actual violence.

IP, have you ever heard of the 6 Day War? Israel didn't start any actual violence.

[quote]We claimed genocide and human rights as a reason for backing Kosovo. I am not sure what advantage we had in doing so though. I thought back then, we should have, again, left well enough alone. It might have been a satisfying the public thing because of the media coverage it got. What really pisses me off is Israel. We had no right carving a nation for them, then defending them as they attacked other countries and the other 100 things they do that is wrong. We look the way so many times it isn't funny. Then we threaten other nations when they do the same. If you want to talk about being hypocritical, you want to talk about Israel. It doesn't matter who regards Ossetia as a state or subsidiary. If Georgia had it in the first place, it is their right to defend it as theirs and do whatever it takes to keep it. If Ossetia wants to secede, they should be willing to fight for what they want.[/quote] Georgia got South Ossetia once the Soviet Union dissolved, and SO declared its independence immediately. Compared to Kosovo/Serbia, this one's a no-brainer, since ~80% have Russian passports, there's a North Ossetia on Russian territory, Ossetian is a seperate language, and the majority of citizens want to be independent from Georgia. Kosovo didn't have these 'qualifications'. Anyway, by your argument I see Russia being morally right in fighting to defend SO. Which I naturally agree with :). [quote]The least Georgia could do is report to the UN. Although quick question, is there even a Georgian representative in the UN?[/quote] .. Not sure. However, there have been three security council sessions on the issue already. I saw part of one yesterday, and it both warmed my heart and made me lose faith in humanity. I didn't see the American guy speak, but the Russian guy kicked ass in arguments. No reading from the paper, arguments about how Georgia didn't actually pull out all its troops, what's required for peace, etc. That warmed my heart. Then, what made me lose faith in humanity was Italy, France and the UK, going next, reading from the peace of paper and saying something like 'SINCE GEORGIA RETREATED, WE WANT A RETURN TO STATUS QUO OF AUGUST 6TH'. Jesus. WE JUST SAID THEY DIDN'T RETREAT. A trained monkey can read from a piece of paper. ... We went to play cards after that. I couldn't watch the retardedness of international politics. In the UN, what i boiled down to was this: Russia invaded Georgia. There was no mention of South Ossetia on NATO's side. Nothing of Abkhaznia. They didn't exist. I got the impression that they would've been the same if Georgian military forces started killing any civilian in sight. Damn Russophobic nubs. [quote]IP, have you ever heard of the 6 Day War? Israel didn't start any actual violence.[/quote] Six Day War is where it DID start the actual violence. Maybe they knew they were about to be attacked, but that doesn't matter. They started it. And Israel existing has been a matter of conflict in itself - it never should've existed.

Quote

We claimed genocide and human rights as a reason for backing Kosovo. I am not sure what advantage we had in doing so though. I thought back then, we should have, again, left well enough alone. It might have been a satisfying the public thing because of the media coverage it got.

What really pisses me off is Israel. We had no right carving a nation for them, then defending them as they attacked other countries and the other 100 things they do that is wrong. We look the way so many times it isn't funny. Then we threaten other nations when they do the same. If you want to talk about being hypocritical, you want to talk about Israel.

It doesn't matter who regards Ossetia as a state or subsidiary. If Georgia had it in the first place, it is their right to defend it as theirs and do whatever it takes to keep it. If Ossetia wants to secede, they should be willing to fight for what they want.

Georgia got South Ossetia once the Soviet Union dissolved, and SO declared its independence immediately. Compared to Kosovo/Serbia, this one's a no-brainer, since ~80% have Russian passports, there's a North Ossetia on Russian territory, Ossetian is a seperate language, and the majority of citizens want to be independent from Georgia. Kosovo didn't have these 'qualifications'. Anyway, by your argument I see Russia being morally right in fighting to defend SO. Which I naturally agree with .

Quote

The least Georgia could do is report to the UN. Although quick question, is there even a Georgian representative in the UN?

.. Not sure. However, there have been three security council sessions on the issue already. I saw part of one yesterday, and it both warmed my heart and made me lose faith in humanity. I didn't see the American guy speak, but the Russian guy kicked ass in arguments. No reading from the paper, arguments about how Georgia didn't actually pull out all its troops, what's required for peace, etc. That warmed my heart. Then, what made me lose faith in humanity was Italy, France and the UK, going next, reading from the peace of paper and saying something like 'SINCE GEORGIA RETREATED, WE WANT A RETURN TO STATUS QUO OF AUGUST 6TH'. Jesus. WE JUST SAID THEY DIDN'T RETREAT. A trained monkey can read from a piece of paper. ... We went to play cards after that. I couldn't watch the retardedness of international politics.

In the UN, what i boiled down to was this: Russia invaded Georgia. There was no mention of South Ossetia on NATO's side. Nothing of Abkhaznia. They didn't exist. I got the impression that they would've been the same if Georgian military forces started killing any civilian in sight. Damn Russophobic nubs.

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IP, have you ever heard of the 6 Day War? Israel didn't start any actual violence.

Six Day War is where it DID start the actual violence. Maybe they knew they were about to be attacked, but that doesn't matter. They started it. And Israel existing has been a matter of conflict in itself - it never should've existed.

What happened in the Six Day War was that almost all of Israels neighbors attacked it, and Israel responded swifty and beat them in six days. The Arabic countries started the actual violence.

What happened in the Six Day War was that almost all of Israels neighbors attacked it, and Israel responded swifty and beat them in six days. The Arabic countries started the actual violence.

Damn, knowing that Russia will be invading Georgia entirely will not have the war end anytime soon.

Damn, knowing that Russia will be invading Georgia entirely will not have the war end anytime soon.

I'm too lazy to look it up, so maybe I got it confused with some other Israel-Palestine war. At any rate, Israel doesn't have a right to be there, and it's completely off-topic. [quote]Damn, knowing that Russia will be invading Georgia entirely will not have the war end anytime soon.[/quote] I was under the impression that Russia was only retaking South Ossetia. Where'd u get ur infoz?

I'm too lazy to look it up, so maybe I got it confused with some other Israel-Palestine war. At any rate, Israel doesn't have a right to be there, and it's completely off-topic.

Quote

Damn, knowing that Russia will be invading Georgia entirely will not have the war end anytime soon.

I was under the impression that Russia was only retaking South Ossetia. Where'd u get ur infoz?

[color=#CE091D]Knowing Russia they'll think of a reason to invde the rest of the country.[/color]

Knowing Russia they'll think of a reason to invde the rest of the country.

Let Russia liberate the country. Stalin came from Georgia, he was a WWII Russian Kommisar or whatever you call that rank. Think of it this way: Weak Kid: *Punches Jock* Jock: WTF, Im gonna own you. Weak Kid: W/E *Pulls out a toy car and throws it* Jock: *Completely pwns the weak kid*

Let Russia liberate the country. Stalin came from Georgia, he was a WWII Russian Kommisar or whatever you call that rank. Think of it this way:

Weak Kid: *Punches Jock*
Jock: WTF, Im gonna own you.
Weak Kid: W/E *Pulls out a toy car and throws it*
Jock: *Completely pwns the weak kid*

[quote]Knowing Russia they'll think of a reason to invde the rest of the country.[/quote] That's a rather gross assumption, as it changes their international view from a savior of SO to an aggressor of Georgia. What, was there a precedent I wasn't aware of?

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Knowing Russia they'll think of a reason to invde the rest of the country.

That's a rather gross assumption, as it changes their international view from a savior of SO to an aggressor of Georgia. What, was there a precedent I wasn't aware of?

[quote=name:Paravin.][color=#CE091D]Knowing Russia they'll think of a reason to invde the rest of the country.[/color][/quote] They have already begun to invade the rest of the country. The Russians are widening their air strikes across Georgia and pushing in more tanks and armoured vehicles.

Quote from Paravin.

Knowing Russia they'll think of a reason to invde the rest of the country.

They have already begun to invade the rest of the country. The Russians are widening their air strikes across Georgia and pushing in more tanks and armoured vehicles.