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Some evolution questions
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Jul 6 2008, 4:56 am
By: midget_man_66
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Do you believe in evolution?
Do you believe in evolution?
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Jul 7 2008, 8:15 pm CecilSunkure Post #41



Quote from Lt.Church
people adapting to their environment would entitle evolution of their skin pigment so it be more resistant to the sun so adam and eve just owned themselves...

No that is an example of micro evolution, not macro. It is micro evolution because this is a variation among mankind. This isn't a variation from mankind into a rabbit, or into any other family, its still a man changing into a man :/



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Jul 7 2008, 8:17 pm Demented Shaman Post #42



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroevolution#Criticisms_of_macroevolution
Enough with the fundamentalist bullshit. :rolleyes:



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Jul 7 2008, 8:20 pm CecilSunkure Post #43



Quote from midget_man_66
Quote from Mini Moose 2707
Quote from midget_man_66
(1.)What observed mutations have been beneficial to an organism?
Have a read up on Peppered moth evolution for one such case. I'm sure there are more, but that's from the top of my head.

The peppered moth shift from light colored to dark colored was not a mutation. the moths already contained genetic information for both variations of moths. It was simply a shift in population for the moths. The ones who were darker got to live in that circumstance, its not any different from a genocide. if you are a certain color of skin, or of a certain tribe/religious group then you are spared. In the case of peppered moths, the birds were commiting genocide towards the lightly pigmented moths that stuck out like a sore thumb on trees with soot, and got eaten. as someone has already said in this topic, not survival of the fittest survival of the luckiest.

Quote from Zell.
Wow midget...
Quote
Zell, He didnt deny evolution, dude. xD. i swear, people pick what they want to hear. (in this case read)
LOL you need to read, because I didn't say that to him nor did I even imply that towards him, I just hate when people deny evolution. You just quit because YOU just picked what you heard and YOU in this case misread.

i didnt misread, i misunderstood. i thought you were slamming him because he is catholic. lol, my bad.

About the peppered moth, this whole thing has been debunked a LONG time ago, they pasted the moths on the trees while the moths were dead. Google the topic if you want, but that who story is false, and even if it were true that would still be just a variation among moths, making it micro evolution (which is used in breeding different types of dogs).



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Jul 7 2008, 8:22 pm WoAHorde Post #44



Quote
Macro evolution is one kind changing to another, like a banana tree changing into a fly. This has never been seen, and neer been proven, and so far is mythical.

Why the fuck would a banana tree change into a fly? Plants and animals took their own separate branches on the tree of Evolution long ago. Evolution does not state that one thing can totally transform into something totally different. Creatures evolve slowly into new ones over time in a way that best benefits the species.

Quote
As for a good mutation, no, there are NEVER any 'good' mutations. Also with a mutation, for evolution to succeed you would need a new input, a new addition to an organisms DNA, and this has never been seen ever. Like when a cow has a mutation of 5 legs, the cow (during conception) already had DNA of how to make a leg, it just made an extra one. There would be no new addition to the cows DNA strand.

Yes, there have been good mutations. It's the reason that you and I are alive today. A mutation is a CHANGE in DNA, NOT an addition. If it's useless or beneficial, it is passed on to the offspring.

Quote
As for bacteria and viral mutation becoming immune to antibiotics.. Well antibiotics work by detecting bacteria through the nodes on the surface of a cacterial cell. These nodes are what identify your blood type on your blood cell, anyways, when a bacterium mutates it loses information inside of its DNA strand through an error during mitosis (splitting of the cell). This loss of info sometimes includes these nodes, so you have a bacteria cell with a new 'tag'. Since this bacteria has a new 'tag' (being the nodes) the antibiotic does not recognize the cell and the cell is unharmed. Then all the other bacteria are wiped out except the mutated one. Well since this is a loss of information in the bacteria's DNA, it is harmfull to the bacteria and does not allow the bacteria to become anything 'more' than a bacteria. The reason this mutation is harmful is: Say you wre being chased by the police and they wanted to handcuff you, well, you 'mutate' and cut off your arms. Now the police cant handcuff you. Well is this beneficial? At the time it is.. but later down the road you will need your arms, and you will die without them. Same with the bacteria, at the time the mutation is helpful, but since it LOST DNA later down the rode this will be harmful to the bacteria.

That is not harmful to the bacteria. The bacteria is now immune to the strain of antibiotics and is free to create more bacteria that are immune to a certain strain. The bacteria did not lose any DNA, it merely made a minute change that made it resistant. On your whole mutation is harmful argument: that example is ludicrous, and is NOT an example of mutation.



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Jul 7 2008, 8:23 pm EzDay281 Post #45



Firstly: triple-post = PHAIL. It's annoying. edit: oh, look, quadruple post. I was ninja'd x3. D:
Now that that's out of the way...
Quote
Allright there are actually 6 types of evolution.
Source, and additional information please. I've never heard of this.
Quote
Macro evolution is one kind changing to another, like a banana tree changing into a fly. This has never been seen, and neer been proven, and so far is mythical.
Again; just like gravity "has never been proven."
We do, however, have a plethora of evidence.
Quote
As for a good mutation, no, there are NEVER any 'good' mutations. Also with a mutation, for evolution to succeed you would need a new input, a new addition to an organisms DNA, and this has never been seen ever.
... w... t... f are you talking about?
"Good mutation;" see what I said about microorganisms and natural selection against our methods of killing them.
We've been able to study DNA well enough to know beyond no reasonable doubt that it does vary to some degree, randomly, during replication etc.
Further, DNA is code. You do not need "more" DNA to create a new structure. It's like programming. You can have two pieces of software that are the exact same length, in source code, but perform completely, absolutely different things.
Quote
As for proving gravity, well the gravity IS a theory. But! You can actually test gravity and gravity is able to be tested anytime. As with evolution, you can never 'test' evolution, and therefore it hardly qualifies as a theory.
Microevolution is, again, beyond reasonable doubt. And when you change something enough, it no longer resembles its original form.



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Jul 7 2008, 8:24 pm CecilSunkure Post #46



Quote from name:devilesk

lolol

First of all wikipedia is flawed because anyone can come into it and post anything.

About criticism.. no. You can't just change the definition of a word and expect everyone to bow down in awe.

I am using macro evolution as an identifier between changing from one kind to another kind. I.E. bananas turning into flies.

So if you want to argue about this then your argueing about the definition of a word.. Not the theory itself. If you want I can use false evolution, or neverbeenseenbefore evolution instead of macro. Its up to you.



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Jul 7 2008, 8:26 pm Falkoner Post #47



Quote
And during the days of moses god man all sinning men die, except moses who was perfect.

??? Moses wasn't perfect, the only perfect being to ever walk this earth was Christ, Moses' only sin was when he smote the rock he didn't do it in God's name.

(Sorry about this all of those who are trying to keep this away from religion, but it bugged me :P)



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Jul 7 2008, 8:27 pm Demented Shaman Post #48



Quote from name:O)Silent
Quote from name:devilesk

lolol

First of all wikipedia is flawed because anyone can come into it and post anything.

About criticism.. no. You can't just change the definition of a word and expect everyone to bow down in awe.

I am using macro evolution as an identifier between changing from one kind to another kind. I.E. bananas turning into flies.

So if you want to argue about this then your argueing about the definition of a word.. Not the theory itself. If you want I can use false evolution, or neverbeenseenbefore evolution instead of macro. Its up to you.
Shifting goalposts




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Jul 7 2008, 8:28 pm EzDay281 Post #49



Quote
First of all wikipedia is flawed because anyone can come into it and post anything.
All textbooks are flawed because someone made them, and that someone is capable of introducing his/her/their own bias into the work.
...
On the other hand, Wikipedia's open nature allows individual bias to be mostly cleared, at the cost of its occasional rampancy.
It's compromise.

... I'm not understanding the point of the rest of your post.



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Jul 7 2008, 8:29 pm Demented Shaman Post #50



Quote from EzDay281
Quote
First of all wikipedia is flawed because anyone can come into it and post anything.
All textbooks are flawed because someone made them, and that someone is capable of introducing his/her/their own bias into the work.
...
On the other hand, Wikipedia's open nature allows individual bias to be mostly cleared, at the cost of its occasional rampancy.
It's compromise.

... I'm not understanding the point of the rest of your post.
And not only that, the section I linked is full of references.

IIDB will own you.
http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=115536



None.

Jul 7 2008, 8:30 pm Falkoner Post #51



Quote
All textbooks are flawed because someone made them, and that someone is capable of introducing his/her/their own bias into the work.
...
On the other hand, Wikipedia's open nature allows individual bias to be mostly cleared, at the cost of its occasional rampancy.
It's compromise.

... I'm not understanding the point of the rest of your post.

Win. This is exactly what I say to all my teacher's who seem to think Wikipedia is not a viable source when random websites you google up are :???:



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Jul 7 2008, 8:32 pm Demented Shaman Post #52



http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-119294.html
http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-230281.html

And there's a bunch of other topics on it
http://www.google.com/custom?q=macroevolution&sa=Google+Search&cof=GIMP%3A%23FF0000%3BT%3A%23000000%3BLW%3A745%3BALC%3A%23FF0000%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.infidels.org%2Fimages%2Fsearchlogo2002a.gif%3BGFNT%3A%23606060%3BLC%3A%230000FF%3BLH%3A64%3BBGC%3A%23FFFFFF%3BAH%3Acenter%3BVLC%3A%23800080%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.infidels.org%2F%3BGALT%3A%230000FF%3BAWFID%3Ad097e75c81a73d7a%3B&domains=www.infidels.org%3Bsecweb.infidels.org%3Biidb.infidels.org&sitesearch=iidb.infidels.org



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Jul 7 2008, 8:39 pm CecilSunkure Post #53



Quote from WoAHorde
Quote
Macro evolution is one kind changing to another, like a banana tree changing into a fly. This has never been seen, and neer been proven, and so far is mythical.

Why the fuck would a banana tree change into a fly? Plants and animals took their own separate branches on the tree of Evolution long ago. Evolution does not state that one thing can totally transform into something totally different. Creatures evolve slowly into new ones over time in a way that best benefits the species.

Quote
As for a good mutation, no, there are NEVER any 'good' mutations. Also with a mutation, for evolution to succeed you would need a new input, a new addition to an organisms DNA, and this has never been seen ever. Like when a cow has a mutation of 5 legs, the cow (during conception) already had DNA of how to make a leg, it just made an extra one. There would be no new addition to the cows DNA strand.

Yes, there have been good mutations. It's the reason that you and I are alive today. A mutation is a CHANGE in DNA, NOT an addition. If it's useless or beneficial, it is passed on to the offspring.

Quote
As for bacteria and viral mutation becoming immune to antibiotics.. Well antibiotics work by detecting bacteria through the nodes on the surface of a cacterial cell. These nodes are what identify your blood type on your blood cell, anyways, when a bacterium mutates it loses information inside of its DNA strand through an error during mitosis (splitting of the cell). This loss of info sometimes includes these nodes, so you have a bacteria cell with a new 'tag'. Since this bacteria has a new 'tag' (being the nodes) the antibiotic does not recognize the cell and the cell is unharmed. Then all the other bacteria are wiped out except the mutated one. Well since this is a loss of information in the bacteria's DNA, it is harmfull to the bacteria and does not allow the bacteria to become anything 'more' than a bacteria. The reason this mutation is harmful is: Say you wre being chased by the police and they wanted to handcuff you, well, you 'mutate' and cut off your arms. Now the police cant handcuff you. Well is this beneficial? At the time it is.. but later down the road you will need your arms, and you will die without them. Same with the bacteria, at the time the mutation is helpful, but since it LOST DNA later down the rode this will be harmful to the bacteria.

That is not harmful to the bacteria. The bacteria is now immune to the strain of antibiotics and is free to create more bacteria that are immune to a certain strain. The bacteria did not lose any DNA, it merely made a minute change that made it resistant. On your whole mutation is harmful argument: that example is ludicrous, and is NOT an example of mutation.

Uhm well a mutation could qualify as an addition though that never happens, but like i said, when a bacteria mutates it loses information.. and the loss of those nodes has serious effects on the cell that are always harmful, like less resistance to anearobic environments, or less resistance to heat/cold.

Also a change in DNA would be a loss, because the entire DNA as a whole has changed due to the loss of info.

About my example, its just an example.. It shows a loss of information (being the arms) and the later effects of the info lost.



None.

Jul 7 2008, 8:40 pm Doodle77 Post #54



Quote from name:O)Silent
Quote from name:devilesk

lolol

First of all wikipedia is flawed because anyone can come into it and post anything.
That article has it's sources cited, check the References section.



None.

Jul 7 2008, 8:46 pm Doodle77 Post #55



Quote from name:O)Silent
Uhm well a mutation could qualify as an addition though that never happens
http://www.genetichealth.com/g101_changes_in_dna.shtml Look at where it says insertion



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Jul 7 2008, 8:56 pm CecilSunkure Post #56



Quote from Falkoner
Quote
And during the days of moses god man all sinning men die, except moses who was perfect.

??? Moses wasn't perfect, the only perfect being to ever walk this earth was Christ, Moses' only sin was when he smote the rock he didn't do it in God's name.

(Sorry about this all of those who are trying to keep this away from religion, but it bugged me :P)

Well that was after the flood.



None.

Jul 7 2008, 8:59 pm WoAHorde Post #57



Prove your so called flood first please. The Earth has never been completely underwater since its origin when no life was around.



None.

Jul 7 2008, 9:00 pm CecilSunkure Post #58



oops hit quote instead of edit :P



None.

Jul 7 2008, 9:02 pm CecilSunkure Post #59



Quote from name:O)Silent
Quote from EzDay281
Firstly: triple-post = PHAIL. It's annoying. edit: oh, look, quadruple post. I was ninja'd x3. D:
Now that that's out of the way...
Quote
Allright there are actually 6 types of evolution.
Source, and additional information please. I've never heard of this.
Quote
Macro evolution is one kind changing to another, like a banana tree changing into a fly. This has never been seen, and neer been proven, and so far is mythical.
Again; just like gravity "has never been proven."
We do, however, have a plethora of evidence.



Quote
As for a good mutation, no, there are NEVER any 'good' mutations. Also with a mutation, for evolution to succeed you would need a new input, a new addition to an organisms DNA, and this has never been seen ever.
... w... t... f are you talking about?
"Good mutation;" see what I said about microorganisms and natural selection against our methods of killing them.
We've been able to study DNA well enough to know beyond no reasonable doubt that it does vary to some degree, randomly, during replication etc.

Further, DNA is code. You do not need "more" DNA to create a new structure. It's like programming. You can have two pieces of software that are the exact same length, in source code, but perform completely, absolutely different things.
Quote
As for proving gravity, well the gravity IS a theory. But! You can actually test gravity and gravity is able to be tested anytime. As with evolution, you can never 'test' evolution, and therefore it hardly qualifies as a theory.
Microevolution is, again, beyond reasonable doubt. And when you change something enough, it no longer resembles its original form.

There is a plethora of evidence because gravity is testable, i tried to state that already.

Also I havnt read your post yet.. im still reading them.

No micro evolution is changes with a certain kind, and never result in one kind of animal changing into another. If you breed dogs to be black, with many dogs, after ANY amount of time, you will end up with a black dog. This is micro evolution, it has been proven.

About the source for the other 4.. let me find them.. I know one is stellar evolution, evolution of the stars wich is false.. Ill post a link someitme, i imagine it will take a while to find it :P



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Jul 7 2008, 9:04 pm CecilSunkure Post #60



Quote from WoAHorde
Prove your so called flood first please. The Earth has never been completely underwater since its origin when no life was around.

I can, but it will take a bit of time to write. Let me try to find a link, and i'll get back to this later.



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