Edit: Ok why the fuck was I ranting again?! Ugh.


Alright, I've thought it over a bit more now. You know, I'm willing to be reasonable and respectful, but I'm just gonna say it: I'm not wholly in the wrong here. I don't think it's fair of you to put me in this position, Moose. Unless we're going to stop being reasonable or respectful here, if any more shit happens (and I don't care WHO it's from), I AM going to confront it. This is what problem solving is all about. I'm going to make sure the petty mind games are on their last legs.


There. Needed to get that out in the open, too. But no apologies this time. Mutual respect needs to go both ways to work. We should all be clear on that, too.

Post has been edited 21 time(s), last time on May 16 2008, 6:13 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.

I remember typing a lot of stuff about getting over the past, but nothing on what to confront in the future.
Depending on what you mean by "confrontation", I don't mind so long as you don't flame and whatnot. Neither your attempt to lead this campaign, nor your reputation as a mapper, nor your ego allows you to break the rules. If confrontation means logical discussion, though, you have my blessing.

I don't think it's fair for you to open a hypocritical righteous campaign and elevate yourself further without anyone ever calling BS on it. I offer no apologies for giving anyone a heightened sense of responsibility for their actions.

All right. Trick question: Assume both sides have an ego of your massive proportions. Who offers respect first? It's great if both sides open with mutual respect, but it doesn't fix existing situations with stubborn parties.

Moose, it took me 21 post edits to beat that last message out of myself. It really is against my nature to be disrespectful to others, believe it or not. It takes extreme shit for me to reach that level (9 months!). My inclination right now, even, would be to give another "keep the peace" answer and to say I'd do all that you ask without any problem. I'd love that, and so would you. And I do respect you as a map maker and as staff, besides.

But unfortunately, saying that would just be a god damned lie.


My trust has been violated on the principal of basic respect before. Many times, and with many people, in fact. As a gesture of respect right now, I won't cite examples of these (and I'm certainly not the first (or last) to experience petty respect issues, either) but I won't lie and say there aren't situations yet that I wouldn't bear my fangs against.

Please understand I'm saying that so you know how important the issue of basic respect is to me. I'm really sorry to put it in such ugly language, but there it is. Believe it or not, I'm pretty tired of the "high horsing" crap, too. But countries go to war over the issue of basic respect. And though it might seem like moar "Serious Business" shit for me having to declare it on an internet forum, that issue is at the root of my entire motivation for participating in the community. I cannot ignore it and keep myself active here at the same time. I just can't.


And yes, that mafia shit did take a toll on me, just like you said. And that's just a minor example. Another example was when I just about nearly quit mapping altogether halfway through Rush over an incident that hit me then, too (there was a reason that map took so long to finish!). I just don't ignore this kind of stuff too well. And I don't want to have to, anymore.



But you know, short of the whole basic respect crap, I've always tried to be respectful to community staff and members through the years. Even in spite of my abominable ego. I don't see myself changing my colors on that any time soon. You needn't worry about me abusing rules or shit like that.



If reasoning were the way to do it, it would be a matter of back tracking to the "who started it" and working it out from the source into some kind of constructive compromise or accommodation solution. But I've realized that just doesn't work with certain people. I'm not going to try to force that solution anymore, either. All I'm asking for now is basic mutual respect. Agree to disagree. That's good enough.

I'm just a god damn map maker, for pete's sake!

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 21 2008, 2:20 am by Tuxedo-Templar.

Ok. With that shit out of my system, I'll offer one final "explanation" on my part (or another tl;dr rant, if you want to see it that way instead ). Note that I'm not giving these out as acts of submission, attempts at "high horsing", nor because I'm agreeing with others who claim I'm in the wrong. In fact, it's quite the opposite of all three.


I'll start off by saying it my way: I am entitled to present authoritative information and personal opinions. The way I see it, unless both respect and reason have broken down... and I can only hope it hasn't (hence my previous two heated posts on that issue), the only thing that denies me this entitlement is if I'm wrong about my information and I refuse to abide by both reason or respect to adjust accordingly (or perhaps at least just respect, if we're gonna boil it all down to that). But again, I hope we haven't reached that level yet.

See, that's the part I think some of you guys don't understand. There's no hypocrisy here. If you're intimidated by my words, and there's no violation of the above conditions, then the only reasonable option is to address why. Or, if reason isn't an option, then the next best respectful approach is simply to agree to disagree. Makes sense, right?


Fact is, I tend usually not to be wrong about the things I say. I even pride myself on that, to a degree. Pick any argument I've made in this thread, for instance, and challenge it if you like. Surely you might eventually find discrepancies, but those too I can address in turn.

But even just doing that (that is, addressing my arguments) would be a fine example of what reasoning is all about. See, even if I'm wrong about something, just being able to handle it fairly, honestly, and openly removes unnecessary undertones of implied disrespect, wrongdoing, or chest beating. We avoid butthurt and work to find 'correct' solutions to problems. Ideal achieved. No mafia mind games or 4chan crap needed.


I'm sure some of you don't like that idea, of course. That's my guess towards the origin of crap like the so-called "high horse": As a defensive mechanism against reason. Works like magic, doesn't it? Never mind that excuses like those are the diametric opposite of what it means to be respectful and reasonable, anyway. In fact, there's actually a word for that kind of stuff. It's called ignorance. You know, that little thing that the principal of civilization exists to fight against?



So to whomever correctly understands what I've just said, and realizes their own connection, yes. I may have just called you ignorant. Respectfully. Wanna do something about it?

The "high-horse" label is a defense mechanism against a colossal ego, stubborness and arrogance. None of which are requirements for reasoning. I put this quote first because the more "logical" (less insulting, from your point of view) points follow. It is useless for us to continue back and forth with you "no I'm not"-ing and me "yes you are"-ing.

See next quote:
You see, that is precisely when it begins to break down.
Perhaps you have been right about many things in the past, but this does not mean you are always right, nor does it mean that you are correct now.

You've threatened to bring out examples of things at least twice in this topic. If you feel that doing so will end the prolonging of our debates, I implore you to bring forth the examples.

Saying this does not make it so. You fester guilt and resentment over things such as Devilesk's comments about Astrogears and Maplantis Mafia... then you come in and tell us that we're all busy festering (Tuxlar festers, therefore if he sinks to that level, everyone does, right?) and that we need to stop. What kind of world do you live in where that is not hypocritical? Maybe I should go shoot some Jews, then confess what I've done and tell everyone to stop killing Jews.

I just checked the topic to be sure, and I have never said your ideals were "wrong". In fact, I think it would be great if the reason you speak of came to prominence. My goal here is not to fight such a thing at all. I have merely stated that the fact that you are seeking these ideals is hypocritical. If Hitler suddenly told everyone to stop the mass killing of Jews, I would say that is right and that he is doing the right thing, but I would still say it's hypocritical of him to promote such a thing.

What's up with the link to this topic in some other random topic? If people really cared about what you're saying here, wouldn't they already be posting? This is another classic example of you trying to make this a bigger issue than it really is and to drag more people into it, which is entirely unecessary. (Sometimes I suspect that you simply like the attention.)

I do not understand why you persist in mentioning mafia. My best guess is that it is an attempt to call out Dapperdan. You underestimate him if you think that he will take your bait and post about mafia in this topic. Consider his silence an agreement to disagree.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 22 2008, 4:25 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

I agree. My original proposal was simply "agree to disagree" for that very reason.

Of course not. No one is always right. But again, that should not matter here.

Well, see, the problem is that in order to argue points about respect, it would have to come down to reopening wounds; a thing that would be real hypocrisy in my book. But since you mentioned dapper in particular (I was actually hoping several people could feel the sting of my previous argument, though ), let's go to work on this little gem of minutia as an example.

See, this was unwarranted. Especially the comment that followed. The meaning of the post in question, as a "joke", was something relevant to a previous discussion being cross referenced into a new one. Now, that's fine if he wants to call it as a bad one. But the respect violation, as I see it, comes down to when I'm in the position of having to divert the subject to accommodate someone who is being openly disrespectful. There was no reasoning presented upon the why. This was just a simple act of showing that it's considered acceptable to violate both reason and mutual respect on what I could chalk up to being basically a grudge (I'm just calling it that because that's how I see it).


Moose, I'll say it again: I'm not the only one here with respect issues. THAT is why I'm not keen on using this thread to revisit the past: As egotistical as I am, I don't think I can see myself entitled to doing that. Or at least, others would have to think they could start doing it too, if I could. I'm using it to address the future. I want shit like that, either minutia or not, to never have to happen again as long as it doesn't need to.

Is that really too much to ask?!

lol.

The only guilt I have is the abysmal failure on my part to get my past points across. This thread was long overdue for that purpose. Yes, that kind of communication failure has bugged me for a long time. I don't intrinsically care about the outcome of stupid shit like that mafia game, or that I lost my cool with devilesk on some stupid occasion (and those are just a few problem instances, by the way). I can get myself past shit like that. But what pisses me off more than anything else in situations like those is where others walk away without stupid conclusions like "high horsing" and crap like that.

Ordinarily I'd assert myself and call that unacceptable, but fact is I'm getting tired. I just want it to stop. I don't really care if others will agree or not. That'd be nice to happen, sure, but I'm not banking on it anymore.

Oh man. I'm being compared to Hitler now? This is worse than I thought.

Except while I'm in the position of others perceiving wrongdoing on my part, and thus hypocrisy, I'd be glad to go to work on those claims too and knock them out of the way systematically. But again, don't mistake that as an offer of submission or apology: It's a gesture of respect. If you agree to my "ideals", then just ignore the next two sentences. Because if not, then we have a real problem here with the basic respect issue, and I can't guarantee it won't get ugly. And I will not submit or apologize then!

No. I'm simply holding out in the off chance someone wishes to apply reasoning for a reason other than personal offense or obligation. This discussion makes a lot of points about the basic respect issue that I consider useful to reference to.

Kinda similar to what I used to do with my old concept maps, too. Only years later do I start seeing some of my old ideas being used in others maps.

The way I see it, sometimes this kind of stuff just needs time and exposure to sink in.

[/quote]
Mafia is a good example to use, that's all. And Dapper is a good example of the respect issue, too. But the fact that I've avoided directly calling him and others out here directly is also my signal that I'm willing to put this shit away. As long as we can take steps to not have it be a problem anymore.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 22 2008, 5:36 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.

You're the one that brought up the "fact" that you have a tendency to be right. Why mention it if it doesn't matter?

I have two points to make about this.
The first is that I agree with you.
The second is that Dapperdan was "right" to make such a post, in a sense that the rules currently in effect at the time of the post did allow moderators to make such posts. When complaints started coming in about Syphon, I promptly modified the rules (and told him to turn down the flaming to adapt). So yes, a corrective step for the future has been taken regarding such things. I encourage you to inform me when such posts are made in the future.
EDIT: As a side note, it is generally not a good idea to post jokes about nuking China in "serious" discussion.

I know that you said to ignore those sentences, but I will not let you get away with such tough talking. Do not even bother making such suggestions of things getting ugly. A breakdown of respect and reason will only be ugly for you. Yes, because I am in power and can ban you.

Fortunately for you, I do agree to your ideals.

If he complains to me every time you mention the mafia game in this topic and Devilesk complains to me when you mention his comments about Astrogears, it indicates to me that your strategy does not work. You are exacerbating the problems. If you're willing to "put this shit away", stop talking about it. That's what Devilesk and Dapperdan are doing. You may have lost their respect by what you did in the past, but your strategy of dealing with it just keeps reminding them of it.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 22 2008, 6:37 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

If we can be respectful, then it shouldn't matter, I should say.

I know what's "right", that is, I know what things staff are "entitled" with getting away with. But I also know what's respectful and what isn't. That wasn't respectful. I don't think there's any mistaking that. Frankly, I don't deserve it.

Basic respect problems are not something to ignore. They're the ones that fester and grow and cause bigger problems down the road. Not just with me, too (I don't know the full story about Syphon, but I'll wager that had something to do with it, too). But don't worry, I will inform you about any more stuff like that.

I edited out a few lines of my own from a previous post that were something along those lines earlier, but apparently I slipped up this time, didn't I? Well I can't really go back now, so I'll just say it plainly: I'm prepared to accept that situation if I have to. But don't think I don't have options too, either, even in my limited position. When Yoshi was about to give up on SEN a long time ago, that was roughly the same thing I told him; and I meant it!

But you see, THIS is just another example of why the respect issue needs to be kept in check. I've seen whole communities blown to bits over it. This little debate is not comparable, of course, but the respect issue at the core of it could very well be. And that's where my worries comes from.


Please understand this has nothing to do with chest beating. I just wanted to hear it from your own mouth that you agree on this. I still have nightmares from those fuckers over at facepunch.

k.

I accept your terms. But, saying you have a tendency to be right is not necessarily resepectful to everyone involved in an argument.

But I AM right! I'm ALWAYS right! Wahahahah!

I felt like someone besides moose and tux needed to post something in here.

First off, I don't see Tux as being incredibly "High Horsed." Hes a good map maker, certainly better than me, and people on a MAP MAKING SITE need to realize that. Secondly, the empathy for long projects is gone. For example, Lethal_illusion's FRAGS system, which detected where players clicked in the game, is one of my all time favorite trigger systems. Yet after he posted it on maplantis, it kinda just flopped. The trouble, as I see it, is that a mapper can be too good for the community to understand. If they make some cool system and nobody else can understand how it works, the rest of the community won't appreciate it as much. They won't realize how much work went into it.
I'm glad to see you've noticed this trend too.

I think the main conflict is that over the years the members of sen have changed. Personally I think its a good thing, as I hate trends that only last with one group of people. (Like 80's clothing, which would be cool if kids today still used it, but isn't because its associated with Generation X.) Yet many of the new people don't really know who's who for the older members. (It would be neat if we had like golden oldies stickers or something, but that would probably just make some of us leave more.) Sure they can play the maps that we post up and get a general idea, but without having experienced the process first hand, how can some of the newer members be expected to know how good someone is. I say this because I've been getting back on map night recently, and met quite a few people who had never played any of my maps. This would have been strange a few years ago (OMG I said Years!?!) but in the current group, a lot of people don't really know the pecking order. (If we could call it that.)

I don't really know what I'm posting about, so I'll throw in some words of wisdom or something:
It is human to point out the flaws in others, but just remember that everyone in a crowd looks the same.
Oh moose.

Yes, that may entitle him to respect in his field. It does not give him prestige elsewhere, nor does it make him an authority in other areas. It is well and good for him to use his influence on fellow people that respect him. When you demanding respect out of everyone for what you've done, particularily those not as involved in your area of expertise, then it becomes... unreasonable.
Something like this is what I mean. The following are results from a search of Serious Discussion for posts made by the great mapper:
(People have worked more than "nine months" on stem cells!)

You could have made the entire StarCraft Campaign and I would've had problems with this if I were paying more attention to that forum when such posts were made. Please note that this is not to say that such posts would be justified coming from anyone else, I just merely raise this because these posts are made by the person you have chosen to defend.
I would also note that I just wrote/rewrote specific rules for that forum today. Hopefully it will improve the quality of posting of everyone there, not just Tuxedo-Templar.

So, the community doesn't understand your map. Therefore they are stupid, and you're better than them. Then I tell you that you're being condescending. Then you look at me, as one of my teachers would say, "as if I had five heads".

Getting washed up? Do what you do best: make new maps or advertise your old ones better. We aren't talking about the defamation of World War veterans here. You can't expect your accomplishments to be remembered forever and spontaneously worshipped by newcomers.

Context called. It wants its phrase back.

People who defeat your philosophy are idiots. Further continuation of the condescending "me vs. them" mentality. Where is the mutual respect? The agreeance to disagree?

... You two might as well take this to PMs and lock this, as you're the only ones posting in it, unless you're really trying to make a public spectacle, and more drama, of it...

Just saying.
Do not want invoke Moosey fury.

I don't demand respect even for the stuff that's my "field". In fact, for most who've talked to me in person, I usually try to send off the impression that I don't want it. It's superficial and, personally, useless. I never get good feedback from people who can't criticize what I make. Same applies here, and hence, again, the purpose of this thread.

I wouldn't be opening myself up right now if I were aiming for just more high horsing crap, I mean.


But if there's one thing I DO demand, it's the baseline mutual respect issue of not taking criticisms into the realm of personal offenses and shit like that. Make no mistake thar. We can't function without that.

Context called. They want their phrases back.



But seriously. Choice of wording versus choice of meaning is the important distinction here. I'd kinda hoped with those posts that people capable of real 'Serious Discussion' could make that distinction. But I'll understand if that's not good enough anymore, seeing how the distinction apparently is a problem with certain people; whether by choice or otherwise.

I personally think anyone with intelligence is capable of reason. But there's two main obstacles that I see as why people don't use it: Bad circumstances, or personal choice.

Some people just perceive unfairness and get trapped in a catch 22 situation where they can't be respectful or reasonable because they feel they'll never get that option for themselves. Or something to that effect. These happen mainly do to information/communication breakdowns. That's what pushing hard to address problems directly is all about.

Then there are the others. These people have the opportunity to do otherwise; that is, they're not trapped in a catch 22 of perception. But they choose not to because they believe the correct approach does not lie in that direction; that, ultimately, reason as a solution will eventually fail, and therefore it ought to be abandoned in favor of the inevitable rules of nature.


We don't owe our modern civilization and quality of living to the latter people. Technology and progress is owed to the few who pushed ahead not for the thought of what's inevitable, but what might be possible. Hope.

As a community that creates custom maps, even as just a recreational activity, I think that's path we really need to be taking. We need to do all in our power to break those catch 22s and to fight against those inevitables. That's what keeps us as creators alive. That's what I think, at least.



Unfortunately, then there's this little thing called reality that rudely comes in and says otherwise from time to time. Or, rather, it says that we're not always going to be capable of breaking those catch 22s, or that sometimes those 'inevitable' folk are going to find their way into the workings of the system and have it their own way. This is when, again, the basic mutual respect issue becomes utterly important as a last line of defense. It should never have to be reached, but there should be no more naivety to assume it won't.

To uphold that line, it comes down to making decisions that, hypocritically enough, resort to the very rules of nature we'd like to fight against. Namely, choosing the 'me or you' route. But that's where the real test of strength comes in! Not in how many people are able to do that, or strictly how well they're able to do it. It comes in afterwards on whether you allow that path to stain your heart with its darkness, or whether you choose to climb back up and resume your old ideals.


That strength is what we owe our present existence to and any chance of hope there might possibly exist yet!




Thar. A nice little overblown rant for ya'll off the top of my mind. G'nite.

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on May 23 2008, 9:51 am by Tuxedo-Templar.

Hmm...


Now that I think about it, if interpretation is an issue, I should just start making my purpose clear from here on.
A surface-level look at this post, for example, implies open disrespect. But the logical conclusion of its meaning should be understandable with the realization of both the obvious hypocrisy of it in the face of my previous arguments and the use of both maniacal laughter and a tongue smilie to disarm its seriousness. That is, making a point by doing effectively the opposite of its surface meaning; an indirect acknowledgment of the fact that I'm not, in fact, always right.


A liar always answers a question of his truthfulness the same way a truthful person would, after all, therefore making it a useless question either way. The only correct way to confront any claims, no matter who they're from, therefore, is to apply reasoning: Something that ought to easily enable correct interpretation of a post like that, as I see it.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 23 2008, 11:37 am by Tuxedo-Templar.

...
Devilesk and Astrogears?
But of, that is the past. If you cease doing that in the future, that's fine.

My surface level look at that post: In addition to not being funny, a statement of immaturity, a note that you do not deserve to be taken seriously, and another stupid comment to divert the conversation off-topic.

Which you have also done here:
While there is a certain level of basic respect that everyone is entitled to, the rest must be earned. When you're here in a serious debate and you make those comments while throwing around "thar", "moar", and s, it doesn't happen.

Now, of course, we can write this off with the fact that it "shouldn't matter". But, that doesn't really resolve the underlying problem that it still creates certain impressions. (ie, more unintended consequences.)

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on May 23 2008, 6:19 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

Yeah lock this already. Noone else's going to read all that bunch of long posts attacking eachother...

There's only a few conditions I can see "unintended consequences" arising from, and none of them indicate anything good going on here. I won't believe you can't understand my meanings; especially after debating so far already. So you can't be stupid.


Meh. Good enough. I spare you the other word I could call that, and settle on the agree to disagree. But now it is YOU that will have to earn back some of my respect, having made that choice.

We really shouldn't have to be afraid of one another here. This has never been a problem in all the years before that I've been here. I think it's stupid to have to sink to that level, personally.


Warned ya'll it might get ugly.

Quaking in my boots, Tux, quaking in my boots.

Has it ever occurred to you, that if one must apply a great deal of analysis to draw the true meanings and intent out of your posts, they might just get a little miffed? Objectively, impressions shouldn't matter and tone shouldn't matter. But, I live a subjective experience along with everyone else and these things contribute to forming evaluations of people. When someone has to sift through many interpretations, elaborative metaphors, figurative language, l33tspeak, memes, jokes, s, and whatever else to find obscure true intentions, they might just become a little annoyed in the process. (ironically, from a promoter of Lojban!) IE, your expression of frustration is just as frustrating to those who must interpret it.

Are they complaining only that it's ugly? Or are they also saying this is a big mass of "TL;DR" to them? (along with implying they don't really care.)

Well hey, I respect you as staff, but as a person, I'd have thought better.

Yet you have no problem interpreting, say, devilesks image macro analogies, amirite?

Sorry, I'm having a hard time buying that. It still sounds like a choice to me. Meh.

Seems about the time posts started getting negative that these cropped up. I'm thinking, probably correctly, that people just don't want to see negativity being flung around. Especially the tl;dr kind.

But at least we've attempted to be constructive here. I appreciate that much. Meh. Go ahead and lock the thread now I guess.