I map as far as I enjoy doing it or as long as I have guys who are interested in that map.
Many things I created in my past were only to show myself that I can reproduce systems I've heard of or that I saw ingame.
Today only new concepts/ideas push me forward in making maps. Complexity can have the same effect, but its effect won't maintain such long, even if all my maps become more and more complex.
My current 2, maybe best projects ever, which make fun to play and are complex and innovative, are worth finishing them.
The first is Kaiser (German title; translated: Emperor) is a game based on build up your own city where you can order your houses to produce different things (units/money). It's special because it could be seen as a mixture between Dragoncraft and Sand Castle Wars spiced with many random events. Many people like that map but it's still pretty unknown because I did not create an English version so far. [So stay tuned, I will make one for sure...]. If you understand German pretty good (e.g. native language), I invite you to try it out. (atm 2k triggers btw)
The other project is a new kind of defense map (as far as I know nobody used a similar system before). I already have some people who said that that would have been totally the best defense map they played in the last 2 years. You can message me, if you want to test it (map name: Starcraft-Maul) (mostly Gateway: Europe; sometimes US-East).

So I conclude...
Having people interested in my work is my motivation. So Mapping is no serious business because you do not gain money for it. It's a hobbie which allows me to become a little bit popular. If nobody cares about your map, maybe I wouldn't map anymore.
>>>> Without external motivation I wouldn't try to finish my maps. <<<<<
If everyone hates my map, I stop working on it. Wouldn't you do the same?

I wouldn't say that you build prototypes of maps in Starcraft which you could create in other games later.
You DIRECTLY create maps for Starcraft because you see its limits. You are working around problems to solve them. You have no "copy" action in the editor, so you use binary countoffs to copy values. You see the things you have, you have just some ideas what would be new.
Tuxlar, you started with a mech idea in mechnogears. You developped your idea untill you reached your current idea of Astrogears. Since you changed and developped your idea you cannot say that you just construct a big prototype map.
Since Starcraft mapmaking is very limited in the choice of units and triggers in general, it would be stupid to create prototype maps for future games in Starcraft.
If you create maps for Starcraft, you need to have at least 1 of the following things...:
A) an idea of a whole game and try to realize it in starcraft as far as possible and modify the inital game so it becomes more pleasing, or... (like my "Kaiser" map is based on a real game)
B) you create a map based on more or less complex systems you know which you try to develop (like creating a RPG with a sort of item system or random upgrades based on kills depending on the enemy strength depending in which stage or area you are), or...
C) you take an existing map and redo it to fix bugs and create better systems, better balance, ....
D) you want to impress some people
E) you want to show people that some things are possible
F) you show yourself which systems can be used for what & experiencing and solving problems

~Ahli

If everyone hated what I was making, I could have cared less and kept working on it

Seeing as though MA got to brag, my turn! I still have map files I made that have a last modified date of 1998.. they weren't decent until 2002 and not truly good until 2005, seeing as though all my releases were in 2006, but that's besides the point, eh?

My motivation was always the end product and the way I saw it, and if I didn't like what the end was looking like, I lost my motivation and didn't finish a map; this was always a judge on how fun it would be and the replay value. This "end in mind" motivation can have multiple levels to it, though, with the desire to complete a specific part of the map with just the end of opening up the trigger editor and seeing all of the triggers neatly ordered staring back at you, or fixing bugs with the anticipation of that joyous moment where you realize that yet another is gone.

"There's no way that would motivate anyone!" It does for me, somehow! For example, Devlin made the terrain (and a negligible amount of triggers, despite his hype) for Monopoly one time, so I decided to hop on board the project. I did every single rent/buy trigger for all the properties (16 triggers each for 22 properties, 352 total) one at a time, taking hours and hours of complete monotony modifying the same things over and over again. However, I was so motivated that I did it all in the course of a week. Of course, the map was never released, because the actual map end product wasn't enticing enough; only the more immediate end in mind of how awesome it was to have all those triggers done. This type of thinking is why I do have an absolutely endless patience for copying.
Starting the next trigger batch required looked at the end product of the map as a whole, which even though exciting, was not AS exciting to me as what my eventual distraction was: spending 25+ hours of time copying the FF7 world map onto starcraft terrain with accuracy to the square (converting it from a SCPM map of the minimap, flipping back and forth between two windows) just to be used as a RISK game. And again, here, I was more motivated to have the FF7 world map exactly copied on the screen staring back at me than I was to actually make a game out of it, because I find it enjoyable. I get the same feeling from that as the joy I receive when finishing a hard calculus or chemistry problem, even if triggers do require a lot less thinking sometimes. This might make me a masochist by a lot of people's standards, but no, Tux, you still can't have my number... that's what SEN's for

Finally, I guess the last input I have to the issue is that for me, it really is all about having fun by getting serious. My problem is that I don't find it fun unless it's for an idea that I really love, so even when I still was making maps, I was only "making" maps 1/4 of the time... I just used every spare second I had making them during that 1/4 because it was so much fun, even if it is in anticipation. It's not a "strange sense of pleasure" in editing maps and doing monotonous things, but a pleasure in anticipation and knowledge of what you are making so you enjoy yourself not only an end product but consistently, as long as you keep a good attitude.

I should just realize now that I am alone in this opinion To each his own, but hopefully I was able to contribute a slightly less normal yet notable perspective on the issue.

End product IS the reason for making (and finishing) maps. The question is what you're trying to get out of that end. You're definitely not alone in that thought.


Most people settle on an ambiguous end point of the map being some generic source of kudos/e-pen0r++/ascension to a higher plane of existence/whatever (which I always classify as "for fun"). But you know, that's fine. I'm going to stop asking that we think about that. That ambiguity is what's really kept us going. Being 'serious' about it, and trying to skim away that ambiguity for something specific isn't going to work. I realize that now. It'll lead down a dark and nihilistic path where we suddenly realize there may not be a correct answer, and our only option therefore would either be to quit or to backtrack to where we started: Ambiguity.

And for all I know there may yet be something in that realm of ambiguity that I don't know about yet. My experience and pessimism works against me, but I've been surprised by things before. I won't assume there's nothing left there.


To each his own. Let's continue exploring. That's my conclusion here.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Apr 3 2008, 6:44 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.

I disagree with this premise.

I don't understand this topic. If map making isn't fun or doesn't yield fun to the person, then people don't do it. There is no discussion here really.

There must be like three mappers in the world who don't do it for the fun, and they probably all live in korea.

I knew you would. You're gonna say its the "journey". But we've already established that we're not here to talk about how to have a "journey"; we're here to discuss how to actually finish maps.

Topic name should be map finishing not map making.

It's still map making. It's the end product that makes the MAKING of the map more fun as well.

Making implies that something gets made. And common sense (muahahah!) dictates that something being made is meant to be for non-self consumption; or in other words, "finished".


I suppose you could release an unfinished map to the same end, which is often better than nothing (and often happens).

But ain't that such a let down when it happens?

Nah.

Yes, but that doesn't include map finishing. It would have to be Map making and finishing, although that is redundant, so it should just be Map finishing.

So you don't believe it's possible to have a real reason to do maps, do you? Why not just say that instead of claiming you get to decide whether the fucking discussion continues or not, asshat.




Sorry. Losing patience again. Gotta stop doing that.

Haha, so fun isn't a "real" reason? You disgust me.

That was funny the first time. I'm really gonna ignore your "points" now because you've already expired the little shred of "benefit of the doubt" I've given your nonsense already, and you failed each time to sustain your points. Gtfo, troll.

I should say that to you. How have you sustained your point that fun isn't a "real" reason.

No I'm saying if fun isn't the reason why people make maps then they're obviously doing something wrong. You don't fiddle around with the map maker of a game with the purpose of constructing an algorithm to do your taxes do you? Alternatively you don't do your taxes for fun do you? There is no real purpose to mapping if not for the end result of having fun.

EDIT: Personal question Tux, do you even know what fun is and have you ever made a non-serious topic in a game forum? Please answer in 10 words or less, I don't want to read an essay.

Not going to. If you used even a modicum of sense you could figure that out from the extensive discussions we've already had. And I've already said I'm not going to entertain your bogus, dead-end existential "points".

Actually my good sense is what keeps me from being deceived by your poor arguments. You have not shown how fun is not a "real" reason for mapmaking. Furthermore, my points are not bogus or dead-end, although I cannot say the same thing for yours.

Tux reports all of devilesks posts.. and vice versa. This topic is seriously bugging the shit out of the me.

Not vice versa, although I should report his posts due to the lack of sense they make.

THAT'S THE WHOLE GOD DAMN POINT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING HERE.

Conclusion: There might be, but I'm not gonna press that point anymore because, frankly, I don't think it'll lead to a positive outcome to do it. Namely I think that whatever real reasons there might be are only things people can choose on their own to accept. Otherwise it's just going to have to be 'for fun'.

It's probably not occurred to you I might actually have a semi-serious reason for doing something like AG, hasn't it? Or at least, enough of a reason for me to push through as far as I have. But because I don't like the tone of your reply, I'll let you either try to dig through the essay posts of this thread to find what I've already said on that topic (muahaha!), or otherwise let you walk away with whatever conclusion you seem to have already made anyway.

Go make your own thread if you want to be Mr. 10-words-or-less. Devilesk can join you.