Staredit Network > Forums > Modding Assistance > Topic: Let's talk balance! (Valky/Devour/Sair)
Let's talk balance! (Valky/Devour/Sair)
Oct 22 2012, 1:54 am
By: pastelmind  

Oct 22 2012, 1:54 am pastelmind Post #1



So I've been thinking about how these units are underused (except for Valky vs Zerg and Sair vs Zerg). I understand Blizzard's Brood War air balance model was:

(1) Tactical air units (Wraiths, Mutas, Scouts) are weak against support air units (Valkyries, Devourers, Corsairs)
(2) Support air units are weak against capital ships (Battlecruisers, Carriers)
(3) Capital ships are weak against tactical air units

This is mostly correct except for Zerg, where the Scourge/Mutalisk/Devourer form an interesting combination
* Mutalisk: Generally frail in any A2A matchup except in ZvZ
* Scourge: Generally strong in small numbers, useful for sniping capital ships and expensive units
* Devourer: Strong against almost ALL air units (weird)

Now, during the 10+ years of StarCraft pro-gaming scene this model has shown lots of problems. Because air units are only used situationally (again, excluding vs Zerg), Valkyries, Corsairs, and Devourers have little use in most cases. I think SC2 solves this problem nicely -- the A2A units (Viking, Phoenix, Corruptor) have some means of helping ground armies (through transformation, Gravitron Beam, and Corruption / morph to Brood Lords). This is all fine, but merely copying them wouldn't be fun.

So in what ways could the three units, Corsair, Valkyrie, Devourer, could be improved so that they get to be used in any game? Obviously, this is NOT about making them stronger, it's about giving them means of supporting ground forces.

Suggestion 1: Give them a ground attack
Answer: The worst possible measure. First of all, it's boring to have more all-around units. See how Blizzard is mucking around with the new Tempest in HoTS? Yeah, that shouldn't have happened.

Suggestion 2: Give them special abilities.
Answer: Most plausible. But what?

2-1: Reduce Disruption Web research cost and energy req
This is the most realistic & unintrusive change I think. I think Corsairs should be pretty useful in PvT with this change. Maybe reduce the range to 3~5 so that enemies have a chance to EMP/snipe the Corsair before it casts D-Web.

2-1: Suicidal explosion dealing splash damage
Thematically, this fits the Zerg Devourer, as only a hive mind could consider sacrificing individual units for the sake of the army. The only problem is that with its large costs and huge HP pool, it will be impossible to shoot down incoming Devourers...meaning that they will either be way OP or super useless.

2-2: Separate the Corrosive Acid effect into a separate spell that affects ground and air
It works, but that makes the Devourer a Corruptor-clone. Besides I think a 9-Acid Spores stack on ground units is going to be way OP.

2-3: Just make the Corrosive Acid effect (not damage) splash onto ground units as well
Better than the above, but still the balance stuff....maybe reduce the maximum stack level to 3 to compensate?

2-4: Salvage (i.e. SC2 Bunker) for Valkyries / Devourers
Thematically, this should fit Terrans, but the question is: Why Valkyries only? Then you start giving salvage to BCs, Wraiths, SVs, Dropships, etc. and things go crazy from there.
Same for Zerg Devourers.

2-5: Give Spider Mines to Valkyries
I actually tried this in a SC1 to SC2 mod a long time ago. Looking back, it was a lame attempt to recreate the SC2 Viking. Crappy.

So...any ideas? Let's brainstorm.



None.

Oct 22 2012, 2:37 am Lanthanide Post #2



Corsair: cheaper dweb for research, research time and energy cost.
Devourer: IMO has always been overpowered because the spores not only increase damage received through negative armor, but also increase weapon cooldown time by 12.5% per spore. Cap max spores to 5, remove weapon cooldown penalty (or reduce it a lot, to like -5% or maybe -10%) and let the effective splash to ground units.
Valkyrie: Some kind of bomb thing, like scarabs.



None.

Oct 22 2012, 6:15 am TF- Post #3

🤙🏾

My opinion: give the Valkyries their afterburners back, Corsair is used frequently enough, Devourer is strong enough when you actually need it - at most reduce their requirement so you don't need a Greater Spire.

Oh and for terran, change the Science Facility requirement from Starport to Academy, nukes away. :D



🤙🏾

Oct 22 2012, 8:25 am pastelmind Post #4



Quote from TF-
My opinion: give the Valkyries their afterburners back, Corsair is used frequently enough, Devourer is strong enough when you actually need it - at most reduce their requirement so you don't need a Greater Spire.

Oh and for terran, change the Science Facility requirement from Starport to Academy, nukes away. :D

You know, the Afterburners existed when the Valkyrie's default speed was a lot slower than it is now. Also, while the thought of faster-than-Muta Valkyries is enticing, it still wouldn't be used in TvP, would it? :(

I've been looking at the Valkyrie's lore, specifically:
Quote from name:Wikia StarCraft wiki
In addition to its combat role, Valkyries also function as aerial transport. Up to thirty individuals can be seated in its rear section, in addition to the craft's pilot and co-pilot. Due to its VTOL abilities, deployment and extraction are carried out quickly and efficiently.
Perhaps adding a transport ability might make sense. Giving it 8 slots would be way OP and a F-you to Dropships. 2 slots seem balanced, while 4 seems a bit to big...



None.

Nov 11 2012, 9:14 pm SCRuler Post #5



you just inspired me, Radigan, with talk of adding transport to Valks... That could provide me a way to disregard the science vessel edit and instead convert the dropship to a bomber. How easy is it to do that in DatEdit/Firegraft?



None.

Nov 12 2012, 4:36 am pastelmind Post #6



Making Valkyries into transports is easy. All you need to do is (1) give them transport space in DatEdit, (2) change the Valkyrie's button set to "Transport" in FireGraft, and (3) change the status presets to "Transport" (also in FireGraft).



None.

Nov 17 2012, 2:02 am pastelmind Post #7



One alternative:

Remember how the Scourges were originally called Avengers in SC alpha? They were called Avengers because they spawned whenever a Mutalisk or a Guardian died, living for a short lifespan and attempting to attack any enemies nearby. Now...

What if the Valkyrie spawned 2-3 Marines upon explosion? I.e. the crew manages to eject using escape pods and land on the ground as units.

Obviously there would be a slew of problems...What if the Valkyrie was on water? What if there is no space for the Marines to land? Do the Marines have limited lifespan like Broodlings (wtf)? Should the Marines "automatically" spend minerals upon spawning? Why not have the same feature for Dropships, Wraiths, and Battlecruisers? However, this is an interesting, theoretically possible idea.


Another simpler alternative involves Valkyries being able to "heal" mechanical units, but that would be downright silly. Plus Terran does not need another spellcaster (Ghosts, Medics, Wraiths, BCs, SVs).



None.

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