Version 1.6 was released last weekend. In version 1.6, 3 new playable maps were added (forest map, snow map and lava map). In version 1.6, the host could choose the map before the game started.

I’m releasing version 1.7 today. It contains the following changes:
- Added a voting system. The host can no longer choose the map and the race of each team, instead players can vote for the map and their team’s race at the beginning of the game. The map/race with the most votes gets picked. In the event of a tie, one of the maps/races with the highest number of votes is chosen at random.
- Added terrain features to the forest, snow and lava maps. These maps now have a special type of terrain that affects ground units that walk over it. The forest map has mud, which causes ground units to move at 50% speed. The snow map has ice, which is slippery and prevents ground units from stopping or turning while on the ice. The lava map has lava, which causes 2 damage per second to ground units.
- Added a custom loading screen.
- Added a heal animation to the beacon so that players know when their hero is being healed.
- There is now a tip on the loading screen that tells players to get anti-air items if their hero cannot attack air.
- Immortals have been made significantly weaker but the robotics facility spawns 2 immortals every 30 seconds instead of 1 immortal every 30 seconds. This was done purely because a few people complained that the immortal was too strong. Personally, I don’t really see how this will make much of a difference (imo, people just have an irrational fear of the immortal because they see 1 big scary immortal instead of 2 less intimidating siege tanks or 3 hydralisks, if anything it will just make the protoss units slightly less unique). The immortal no longer has hardened shields (hardened shields actually worked differently than in melee and had a % damage reduction bonus rather than a maximum damage cap), has 100 life instead of 200 life and deals half of the damage that it used to do.
- You can now use the defiler hero’s consume ability and the zergling hero’s devour ability on hydralisks, roaches and mutalisks in addition to zerglings. However, the autocast only works on zerglings.
- Critters now spawn every 30 seconds instead of every 60 seconds. Hopefully this encourages players to kill critters.
- Players now receive income every 30 seconds instead of every 60 seconds.
- Critter spawn locations have been added to the minimap.
- Fixed a bug where the cooldown of a unit’s ability would not decrease while a unit is dead. For example, if you have a hero that dies while it has 60 seconds left on the cooldown of an ability and the hero takes 20 seconds to revive, then the hero would revive with 60 seconds left on the cooldown of that ability rather than 60 – 20 = 40 seconds. Thanks to payne for finding this bug.
- Fixed a bug that caused fog of war to be disabled.
- Fixed an issue where a player’s hero would not be deselected if it died while at level 0.
- Fixed an issue where the baneling hero’s ultimate, quick death, would sometimes not work.
- Fixed an issue where spawned units would sometimes not attack enemy units near their spawn location.
- Fixed an issue where the computer players would not spread workers evenly across the mineral patches on some maps.
- Fixed an issue where critters would not respawn at a location if one of the critters is mind controlled or neural parasited.
- Fixed a number of bugs that were created as a result of patch 1.2.
- There are probably a few changes that I have forgotten to add here.

@Faz - somewhat true. But honestly, it really was just no fun... and have u even played it yet?

srsly.. it wasn't.. It's about standards. Mine's and a lot of others' here have high standards b/c most of us come from mapping backgrounds.

I've certainly tried to have you look the other way.. try to help you turn a corner, but you're stubborn and still believe that the way you've done your map is best.
You keep saying you want constructive criticisms, so we answered. But every single time you just deny it. So why the fuck are we here talking about this?
There are obvious problems and we were trying to address it. If you don't give a fuck, then why would we give a fuck about any new updates.

You think that you know the answer, and that your map is better than any other map out there.
It's not, and everyone who has played your map and given an honest opinion here will agree. Face the facts.

It's not about what your ideals are.. it's not about quoting other people and defend against it... It's our honest opinion and we're trying to help.

Right now, I don't give a rat's ass about Dota-like, HoN, AoS, and w/e this blob of updates have to say. The way you type your posts is ghastly, and your attitude towards mapping is far worse.

1- The Probe hero is extremely under powered.
2- Cancelling a construction doesn't refund energy properly for the Probe hero
3- Canons are way too weak

This is true. What is interesting is that I get very different feedback from different sites (ex. I get very different feedback from teamliquid.net than here).


The thing is hero attack wasn't easy to make and has a lot more work put into it than most of the popular maps on the NA server. I just try to make the presentation very simple so it is easy to understand (I think that is why some people have the impression that hero attack was easy to make).


Maybe, but there is a bit of a difference between dota and hero attack. In dota, one team was always sentinal and the other team was always scourge and teams could not pick their races. What if both teams wanted to be sentinal or both teams wanted to be scourge? In hero attack there is race picking so teams can always play the race they want (not to mention players will have to adapt to different matchups). I would like to see how having different races works out.

@ UnholyUrine - I do appreciate feedback and criticisms. However, I think that some of the comments in this thread are a bit unjustified (more specifically the comments that hero attack is aweful and that I should remove half the heroes and all the items). Anyway, I hope you give the map another chance.


Yeah, the probe hero is definately weak so I will try to make the probe hero (as well as the scv hero) stronger by the next version. Though I would like to state that I think the map that we were playing on (snow map) is a map that is less favorable to the probe hero than other maps simply because the 4 lanes converge into two lanes so it is much harder to cannon up a lane because there are twice as many enemy heroes and twice as many enemy troops concentrated in one area.


I'll try to fix this issue by next weekend, so that you can regain energy if you cancel an unfinished building.


By this, do you mean the cannons that the probe builds, the cannons that the computer controls as base defences or both? I'll assume you mean the first possibility (probe cannons are weak but cannons as base defences are not). In this case I will try to make cannons stronger either by: a) increasing the probe hero's energy and energy regeneration, b) decreasing the energy cost and all construction time of the photon cannon, c) giving the probe constructed photon cannon more shields and life.

Also, Payne, you asked how hold fire works for the DT hero. Here is how hold fire works: it simply applies a behaviour to the hero, the behaviour makes the hero 'passive'. What this means is that the hero will no longer automatically attack unless given an order to do so. The behaviour is removed if you cancel to hold fire or if your hero attacks (or is issued the order to attack either by using hold position or attack move). Hold fire does not stop your hero so you can use it while you are moving. If you want to hold fire and stop then order your hero to hold fire and stop (or use the hotkey Q and S).

I can definately see why you were having issues with hold fire. If you hold fire then order your hero to attack move or hold position then the hold fire is cancelled. I will modify the ability so that the hold fire behaviour is not removed if you use hold position or order your hero to attack so that it is easier to use.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 16 2011, 8:19 pm by iiequalsexpipi.

It's just how he is: he likes to .


I was talking about the Defense Canons. I saw 3 canons getting literally -owned- by a little wave of creep and 1 hero... and they were full health when they attacked. Definitely needs more HP or Armor in there.
And thanks for the precision on Hold Fire.

Well it's not just me. Ignoring Cardinal, as he hasn't played the map... Biophysicist and Faz both agrees that the map lacks something.

@Payne. Yeah, that's just the way I am. I'm passionate about game design, and I'm always frustrated with people spending loads of their time and talent on something unproductive.

@Creator (name's too hard to type and remember )

Maybe I should put it this way. You say that you appreciate the feedback, but I think I can safely say on behalf of everyone who has criticized your map that you have a certain level of pretentiousness.
While it is certainly a good thing to keep your wits about you, you also have to imagine this map on someone else's shoes.
Moreover, you have to realize that we're trying to help. So don't be so thick-skulled and listen sometimes, yeah?

I'm going to give you, personally, one more chance.

It is very easy for a map creator to treat their maps as their pet projects. This often leads to the creator ignoring important hints as to what's wrong with the game's design/gameplay mechanics.
I can see this problem with Chirus' Soccer map, and the problem is almost exactly the same here.

Both maps start off with way too many choices. Chirus's soccer map start off with 18 possible players, each with their own unique abilities. Yours start off with God knows how many different possible heroes, each with FOUR of their own unique abilities.

Problem with Chirus' soccer map is that all these abilities and differences detract from the core gameplay, which is to play soccer. From the last time I've played, the mechanics in passing, pushing, and ball possession detection were all... wonky. ... i.e. they didn't control well.... Notice how ALL of these are what I'd consider Core Gameplay Mechanics. The reason for this problem is obvious. Chirus focused too much on expanding his roster of soccer players than trying to get a decent soccer map going.
What we end up with is a clusterfuck.

Hugely similar is your map, Hero attack. You've focused too much on expanding your roster of heroes that you've neglected the core gameplay mechanics. In an AoS, or DotA, or *shudder* MOBA, map, one of the core gameplay mechanics is Hero Uniqueness, and Hero Interactions.

What advances both of these gameplay mechanics is good spell design, and your map is hugely lacking this.
Add in the bland terrain, bland items, unthoughtful and imbalanced spawns, it all adds up to poor gameplay.

This is the reason why I stressed for you to remove half of your heroes and focus on the gameplay. But being the pretentious bastard that you are, you ignored my pleas, and just kept telling yourself that you got something that's different and better than all the hundreds of other AoS's out there. Ultimately, you missed what I'm trying to get at.

GET YOUR FUCKING GAME DESIGN STRAIGHT.

At this point in time, even Spell/Hero uniqueness isn't good enough. You're in direct competition with DotA, LoL, HoN, Smashcraft, City of Tempest, and SOTIS (the only real competition is DotA, since it sets the bar for every AoS nowadays, and SOTIS is a shameful ripoff). What I suggest you is really think about what the customers want. I think SC2 pubbies right now want the "WOW factor" (because I believe they're innately stupid enough to buy SC2 and jizz about it when it is an unbelievably overrated, overhyped sequel that sucks so much dick that now it ought to be breathing spunk instead of air [plagiarized from Zero punctuation]) and that their attention span is as long as what they feel their epeen is.

Another thing I noticed that they're still stupidly in love with blizzard and everything blizzard likes to use. So, what I'd suggest is to abuse a deceptively simple gameplay mechanic called The Skinner Box... used in extreme doses by WoW fans.

But of course, the most important thing for pubbies nowadays is Innovation. Because SC2 is still in its early days, people LOVE innovation. If you can somehow make ur map feel creative and novel, then people will flock to your map like it's free ice-cream on a sunny summer day.

Now I'm just rambling on, so let me get to my biggest point of this post.

MAKE NOVEL/UNIQUE GAMEPLAYS INVOLVING HERO INTERACTIONS
not new items, new heroes, new spawns. fuck all that.
If the way we use our heroes to fight is unique to only your map, I promise you, your map will be a fucking big hit.

So, get your ass out of your head, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
Your map sux. Srsly.

<3
~Unholy

---

P.S. You can argue that I'm pretentious also. But again, I'm trying to help. And since I'm the customer, I'm always right. No matter what. This is a lesson that everyone should learn, especially map makers.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 17 2011, 1:30 am by UnholyUrine.

Guys, there's a lot of putting down of the map maker in this topic, try be a bit more constructive please. It's not exactly going to make him like SEN more, nor is it helping. Just say your piece as to why you dislike the map and add some positive stuff about what you liked and then begone.

Your tl;dr post fails miserably, Jack.

Please try again.

problem's been cleared
Point is, this is me.. don't care if it gives SEN a bad rep....
I guess if you really want.. i can remove all the swears...

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 17 2011, 2:20 am by UnholyUrine.

This is the first time someone has suggested that defensive structures are too weak. Are you sure it was a single wave and not several built up? I'll definately look into it and if I get similar complaints from other players then I can make them have more life or shields.

Well thanks for you feedback unholy urine. Clearly you have some very unique and stong opinions about hero attack.


Could you please justify these claims?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 22 2011, 4:35 pm by iiequalsexpipi.

I thought I did already...

Bland terrain speaks for itself
Bland items b/c all are just numbers and none really stands out
Unthoughtful and imbalanced spawns b/c Immortals and pwn the Reaper hero. Also they're too messy and spawns way OP against certain heroes. No real thought behind how spawns should progress.
Gameplay mechanics = bad because of a myriad of reasons.. but mainly b/c it's just like any other AoS games
Also, too much grinding, not enough PvP (hero interactions)
Bad spell design = Reaper hero. Again, other heroes remain to be seen. But there shouldn't even be 1 hero that's boring

UU's just a hater.
Also, use "Quote" function please.

For sure, just messing a little bit with the Lighting of your map will give it a bit more of a professional look. Lighting can do wonders, seriously.

Sorry, I forgot. Quotation marks are so much easier.


That is a good idea. I haven't touched lighting so I will try to improve it in the future.


I know the terrain was bland and boring. That is why I have significantly improved the terrain in the past few versions. If you played the game you would realise this.


Lol, items are just numbers? What does this even mean? Yeah, because I certainly don't have any unique items... Not like there are shareable nydus networks, shareable bunkers, teleporting obelisks, an interceptor item which a lot of people seem to like, a burrow item which makes all zerg heroes burrow, 4-5 unique spell items for each race, etc.


1. The immortal is no stronger against the reaper hero than the other heroes. 2. Just because you may not neccesarily understand the thought process behind the decisions involved with the spawns doesn't mean that the spawns are 'unthoughtful'. There are many subtle balance decisions (such as why zealots do 2x6 damage instead of 2x8 damage, why the zerg team gets roaches before hydralisks, why the terrans get banshees instead of vikings, etc.) that were done to minimize spawn imbalance in each matchup while ensuring that the spawns of each race are unique. 3. I weakened immortals in the last version so that they are roughly half as weak but the protoss gets 2 at once instead of 1 (I even said this at the top of the page).


Try basing your arguement on more than 1 out of 36 of the heroes.

Okay, version 2.0 has been released. Here is the changelog.

- The river map and the lava map have been significantly improved, hopefully they look as nice as the forest map and snow map.
- The probe, scv and drone heroes have been buffed significantly.
- The probe hero and scv hero now have +20% energy and energy regeneration while the drone hero now has +25% life and +1 life armor.
- The probe hero and scv hero now receive energy when they cancel their buildings. Furthermore, the SCV hero's cooldown for build battlecruiser is reset when the scv cancels the battlecruiser.
- Protoss power is now shared by all members of the team (this is not something that is easy to implement as many other mapmakers can tell you). This means that you can now power allied buildings with pylons or the power field item and similarily your buildings (if you are the probe hero) can now be powered by allied pylons and the power field item. Furthermore, the requirement that you need the pylon skill before you can get photon cannons has been removed. So now the probe hero can learn photon cannons at level 1 and build them right away using a pylon controlled by the computer player.
- The build time for the auto turret and the missile turret have been decreased to 5 seconds from 10 seconds.
- The drone hero can now use the ability poison spine while it is a spine crawler and a spore crawler (even when rooted).
- The probe hero now has +0.5 range (for a total of 1.5). This was done to make it easier to micro the probe hero's attack.
- The cooldowns of the attacks of the probe hero, the scv hero and the drone hero have been increased by the damage has been decreased (dps remains roughly the same). This was done to make it easier to micro their attacks.
- Photon cannons how have +1 shield armor.
- Baneling Hero's explode ability now does 20% less damage.
- Hold fire has been modified. It is no longer removed if you order your hero to attack or hold position.
- Fixed a bug that caused the stalker hero to not respawn.
- Fixed an issue where some cooldowns did not work due to patch 1.2.
- Fixed a few more actor issues caused by patch 1.2.
- Roach life has been reduced by 5 for balance purposes.
- A few other minor changes that aren't worth mentioning.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 22 2011, 9:11 pm by iiequalsexpipi.

A video has been added to the original post. Please tell me what you think of it.

I tried to keep it short and quick (and it doesn't involve me talking into a microphone for several minutes). I also used footage of the gameplay from the map nights in the video.

Incidentally, ignore UnholyUrine whenever he says anything about items, he hates items in general

Only if they're detrimental to the core gameplay.
Which in this case, plus many other games, it is.

But, w/e floats your boat.

I find items a bad idea, too. Unless they're like "Gives +3 damage" or something... But then upgrades would be a better choice, probably.

Incidentally, your tome system sucks. Add more than one type, please. (Well, unless you already did. I haven't been able to try the newest version yet.)

I put in red - all the abilities that are pretty much blatantly identical to / or exist within the Starcraft 2 Melee or Campaign dependencies. Judging by your vehement defence regarding the most minor suggestions and feedback for your map - I don't think I'll want to play this. I prefer my games to have a bit of refinement and ingenuity. Not simply every Starcraft unit ever conceptualised and put into a map as a hero.

The only ingenuity (and barely just) that I have seen is the Dark Archon, Reaver, Defiler and Dark Zealot heroes. If all 36 heroes showed that sort of ingenuity, I would play your map.

Gl hf.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 25 2011, 7:57 pm by Cardinal.

I understand why unholyurine dislikes items (because players will spend time shopping instead of being engaged in combat). But at the same time items do add a bit of strategic depth since they allow further customization of the hero and you can buy items to help counter the enemy team.


Upgrades would be an interesting option. My concern with upgrades is that it might result in players spamming one or two of the 'good' upgrades. Take starbattle for instance, often players will spam one or two 'good' upgrades such as speed and range while neglecting the rest. If I have upgrades I would have to make it so that there are diminishing returns or increasing costs.

On a topic somewhat related, I was originally going to have upgrades that would make the computer controlled units stronger but I never got around to it because units were already quite strong and it seemed like it would just be yet another factor to balance.


There is still only one type of tome which gives an all around bonus. Tomes were really only something I added simply because in the late game there wasn't anything to spend money on (unless your team was protoss in which case you could spam obelisks). I'm not really sure where I want to go with tomes or items, but suggestions would definately be appreciated.


In many of the cases that you mentioned above the only similarities between the SC2 ability/upgrade and the hero attack ability is the name and the icon used. Some of the abilities that are highlighted might seem very simple and easy to implement but are actually quite difficult due to the limitations of the editor and require clever work arounds. Anyway, I wasn't trying to prove that there aren't similarities between SC2 units and hero attack heroes (the heroes in hero attack are based on SC2 units so they are easy to remember), rather I was trying to show that there was a diversity of hero types and playstyles.

Also, if you have any ideas or suggestions for better abilities for the heroes, please do not hesitate to tell me. I don't mind replacing one ability for another if a better idea is created.

Then again, you could spam the good items, could you not? And definitely have increasing costs, if you did have upgrades.

I still haven't had a chance to play it, but after watching the videos my initial thoughts are that the terrain is very bland (which has been said before ) The Spawnlotsofunits heroes are a bit interesting, don't know whether I like them or not though. The idea of having terrain affect units is a very good one, e.g. lava ice mud.