Oh. Meh, never noticed.

Alright I have another question for everyone: Abilities, should we have them with individual scaling? Meaning say you have an intelligence hero that also specializes in dealing damage via auto-attack. His abilities should scale off Intelligence and Agility. Here is an example of a hero I plan to implement:



The hero is designed around the idea that, you will want to choose to be a wide-area nuker with Nightmare and Flock, or deal massive single target damage with Shatter and Flock. Ideally, you could become a significant ganker with high-speed boots and a tome that aids in this endeavor or allows you to deal even further bonus damage with her stacking debuff. Ideally, you could turn team-fights one of two ways: Eliminating a single enemy hero, namely their carry or a support, or deal AoE damage for your allies to take down what is remaining.

The main reason for her theme is because Marianne just sounded like such a bitch in my SC map, that I had to bring her back as a Pyromancer sort of hero.

It's not about comprehension of the block of text. It's about gameplay design, and this is a horrible design
How can you not find it tedious to have to read all of the effects and then try to see any difference in the hero? This isn't a turn-based game, it's about skills and strategies that require quick thinking

By making the players read the block of text, it effectively slows the gameplay to a halt for most new players. This is partly the reason for DotA's elitism, and I'm raging because I just see the same mistake being copied over and over again without any thought of how detrimental it is to gameplay.

Maybe you're just an uber nerd who likes reading everything. In that case, you should go play turn-based RPGs instead. Like Pokemon

@Infected Sniper Idea
'tis been an overdone idea. Lame.
Needs another name perhaps?

I suggest not spending too much time on theorycrafting out the characters or map specifics, as you really need to experience a game in order to know how it plays. It's easier to design and balance the whole thing if you constantly playtest through development, rather than planning it out all, as it's impossible to plan out all the gameplay without playing it yourself.

Also @ spell descriptions

there're too many jargons..

and also, I don't see why Marianne won't become a monster herself...

I still want feedback on this terrain tileset! Or should I just go ahead and continue terraining?

The terraining is a lot better than my try and the choice/blending is very nice!

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Seems very similar to Nunu's Ultimate in LoL. Except that it is an aura and not a timed slow that does massive damage at the end.

I would suggest that this would unfreeze the frozen units because...It would make sense. This would make it a bad choice to combine fire and ice, but that's up to you (Unless unfreezing would cause more damage because it's painful to be put under high temperature when you were just at low temperature).

Why would it increase damage to frozen units? (I'm sorry, I'm straying off to the idea of realism.) I would have a rock spike coming out of the ground, crushing the target unit instead of a skill-shot. It's more like the second spell if it's going to be another projectile being fired. My idea for this to make it realistic is:

This would make more sense for the stunning and the "target unit". Crushing a frozen object will be easier, causing more damage (and making more sense). Again, this does not have to be, but it's what I believe is more realistic.

The name sounds a lot like the Warcraft III panda mercenary's ultimate. (Splits into 3 different units) I would name it something like... Elemental Overdrive/Overload or something along those lines. However, the idea of all 3 spells at once it good!



My methodology behind this hero is to create versatility. This rough draft however leans toward disabler/ganker. You could either go Cold & Earth for insane nuking damage, capitalising on the Frozen Solid & Shatter effect. Alternatively Fire and Earth specialising with items geared toward spell-casting can make your hero a solid early-
game support nuker.

Alternative ideas revolve around Earth being defensive, Fire being offensive and Ice/Wind/Storm being more tactical. I am open to evolution on this idea.
[/quote]

Also, why not have a bunch of Collapses on the main post with all the hero suggestions, so when we get to the hero making process, we only have to look at the start?

I'm not planning on helping out with this much, as if I ever get any time it'll be to help out with TS2, but I may as well pitch in as to the whole items argument.


You're assuming new players find it difficult to pick that sort of thing up. DotA/LoL/HoN etc have literally millions of players, most of whom suck at grammar, spelling, general life skills etc, yet they pick up the item descriptions just fine. It has never been and probably will never be a hard thing for people to pick up, except for you. What I don't understand is how it is hard for you to understand item descriptions like 50% attack, 200 damage, when all these millions of illiterate (loosely speaking) 12 year olds can. Now, if your only problem was with item names being generic/not awesome enough, fine. But most gamers that I know of like to know the details of their hero and their respective items and spells. How much HP have they got, how much hp will they gain if they upgrade HP or get x item, how much can it benefit them to save for an item instead of getting y item right now, how come that dude wtfpwned me so quickly, etc. People pick up this stuff really fast, and they enjoy having all the knowledge of the items and spells and builds. If they didn't, games like dota would never become popular because they're too complicated. Yet they are very popular, so it can't be THAT detrimental to the game. As for elitism, elitism comes no matter how simple a game is. Take Temple Siege. Simple enough to pick up, but you still had more elite players such as maxx, icy, and all the other pros that I've forgotten, and most of them were elite aholes.

Then maybe only I see the faults in the item systems.

Anyways, I wouldn't be bothered to remember every single hero's details if I can't start liking it or the game. As for as I'm concerned, Items do not help in immersing the players and only serves to confuse them. Of course people will understand it if they really want to. It's the same reason why we're all here at www.staredit.net . b/c we wanted to learn more and make maps.

But point is that not a lot of people make maps (only a fraction). And similarly, only a fraction of people will like the maps. The exception w/ DotA is because it is probably a very well made map overall and is still very enjoyable. LoL and HoN because they're riding the DOTA wave and anything that has anything to do with DOTA will become popular... (also b/c they're actually good games). Similarly, a brand new map with a complicated item system will confuse and deter certain players from it. And even if the map as a whole is awesome, it is still a flaw and I just don't like it.

The argument that DOTA is good so everything in it is good is false.

INSERT MODESTY: The spawn system in Temple Siege sux. Like... really REALLY bad. I agree. But you can't say it's not THAT bad just b/c TS is so popular. B/c it IS that bad

Players have to be able to pick up the game and play it. Simple as that. Items should only act as a secondary feature. I still don't see the point of having so many items unless we're playing an RPG. but since this is a "MOBA" (agree with faz that MOBA is a horrible term), the focus has been taken away.

While I love having someone willing to take a dive on terrain, I am currently looking at it with this perspective: Actual jungles and such, with a lot of green and blue, have been over-adapted into the genre. Why don't we take fire, structures, destroyed cities... Make it look like actual battling has happened and is happening? Besides, StarCraft is a dark game with technology and is generally about destruction. Here is a good image to look at, but don't think that is what I want done. It's just the general theme of the map.



Also, came up with a random idea for a story:

Welcome to Shangri-La, the world where it's people have reached a state of immortal beings. They are willing to share their powers, but they require something in return: Blood. Gladiators from all over the universe have come to Shangri-La, destroying it's once beautiful features and turning it into a war zone. Different alliances have been formed under the different beings of Shangri-La, fighting for their name in order to receive what they have to offer. Even when the Gladiators die, the astral beings revive them to continue battle for their amusement and pleasure, where the Gladiators seek unlimited immortality. Some have become so accustomed to the war, that they now just do it for pleasure themselves.

On the subject of item criteria and what can be affected. I think we should follow a basic, set and standardised procedure.

What I mean by this is, we have 3 tiers of items. Tier 1 items are all purchased from the basic shops. Tier 2 Items are made by combining tier 1 items (or can be bought at a 'secret shop'). And Tier 3 Items are made by combining a variety of Tier 1 and Tier 2 items.

In plain english terms:

• Tier 1
  • Dagger // +5 Attack Damage, +20% attack speed (melee only)
    
  • Wooden Shield // +2 Armour // +10% chance to block up to 8 ranged damage.
    
  • Energy Crystal // +100 Maximum Energy
    
  • Fire Orb // +2 Fire Damage, +10% Fire Resistance
    
• Tier 2
  • Energenetic Shield (Wooden Shield + 2x Energy Crystal) // +300 Maximum Energy +20% Magic Resistance
    
  • Flaming Dagger (Dagger + Fire Orb) // +10 Fire Damage, +10% Fire Resistance
    
• Tier 3
  • Pyron's Aegis (Energentic Shield + 2x Flaming Dagger) // +300 Maximum Energy, +15% Magic Resistance, +15% Fire resistance, 20 damage per second immolation Aura.
    

So we basically complete a bunch of (maybe 16?) tier 1 items, and then we filter them through so that there are 20 to 30 Tier 2 items and 12 to 16 Tier 3 items.

The basic idea behind this item system is that at no point should your hero have an item which is not 'good' for that hero. The Energentic Shield is a good investment for all spell-casters since it enhances your durability to physical attacks as well as some minor protection to incoming nukes (spell attacks). But, a Tank-type unit would also benefit from the increased Energy, and the Pyron's Aegis is a late-game epic item, specifically in Match ups which involve a lot of fire/spell casting damage.

...My "Focus" is right where I want it to be. If you want a simple game, go play Hex'd. It's generically simple and you fight other players. This is a game that has STRATEGY. Think of it like StarCraft 2 Melee: There are advanced build orders, strategies, crazy counters, rushes, etcetera. A new player, who has never played an RTS seriously, is going to want to do something crazy and build up huge armies like they do in the campaign. When they start getting their ass handed to them, but want to continue to play, they develop turtling. Once they find out this doesn't work or they get flamed too often and take it to heart, they begin to develop strategy. Trial and error is how I am sure everyone here learned how to play StarCraft. Nobody picks up a game quickly and can master it, there is too many things to learn and experience to understand it right away. Get some fucking patience and learn the games before you say they suck. If a game has tens to hundreds of thousands of players who are addicted to it, then you think it sucks: Chances are, YOU suck.

Sorry for the rage, but I am getting tired of people flaming the DotA/AoS/LoL/HoN/MOBA/WHAT-EVER-THE-FUCK-YOU-WANT-TO-CALL-IT genre. If you don't want to learn it, go back your PvE game, farm and leave the rest of us alone.

@LoveLess - regarding the dark and grimy terrain approach...

That is easily achieved with lighting. Depending on how far you want to go down the 'dark and grimy' road, we could replace a few of the sand textures for a few from Shakuras. To give it a more desolate and alien feel.

The initial sample blend I posted (posting again for clarity)


The textures do look very bright. But this is easily modified with some lighting and fog tweaks. I assume we're going to incorporate a Day / Night cycle into this?

No problem man, I know how lighting and such work, it's just a whole lot of green when I saw it. Personally, we can worry about the ultra-cool-graphics for quite some time. We really need to start working out the lanes/creeps/towers at the moment before the project loses speed. Everyone here knows thats how projects die, is because theirs too much focus on the small things way too early for it to make a difference.

But definitely, we can tweak everything as needed. You said you were going to work on terrain if I remember, hows that coming along? Right now we just need to level out the terrain, laying down the lanes, river and base heights with their walls/raised terrain, then start tweaking the creeps and towers.

Well, lets create another thread. Call it MOBA Project Sign up... Give everyone a task and a deadline, and if they meet this deadline with sufficient progress/work having been created - then we add them to the credits list and take the project further... with new tasks etc.

Some ideas of tasks:
*Creep design, 3 units for each race top v bottom
**Melee Unit, Ranged Unit, Siege Unit
*Tower Design, 4 different types of tower with 5 levels of difficulty
**Frontier Tower, Central Tower, Base Tower, Primary Building Tower
*Hero Creation
**Create a total of 5 Hero's per Race.
*** Avoid Behaviour - Veterancy and Triggered Abilities. This will all be done in the primary map..

What do you think?

WETFYWTCI
..
I like it
since you're raging and it is going offtopic, i'm going to stop talking about items

...
which unfortunately leaves me with nothing to say... for now..

You could try throwing a wrench into the mix.

Instead of having 3 lanes or 5 lanes or w/e, where the enemy always engages the other enemy computer, you could try something like a real battle might be, where there is a "front" rather than lanes. The terrain would probably still largely dictate the computer movements, but it would be more spread out rather than just pushing in 3 small areas.

Believe me, I have thought about it. This is where League of Legends lost some of the DotA luster. Having Runes spawn at a known time and having an alert that Roshan/Boss-man was defeated, made for a big ruckus in the river quite regularly. I have always liked the forced Battle idea in Custom Hero Wars, but the fact is: That can ruin the simple push to win factor. I haven't been in more than one or two HCW that still had a full game by the end because people just couldn't win in the Arena.

@Vrael - your idea in theory works wonders.

But in practice it would be extremely hard to pull off.

Okay, I spent 10 minutes in MSPaint to illustrate my point but then gave up.

If possible, I would love to see this sort of gameplay implemented. Where 10 groups of units spawn for each team at the north and south, then they travel up or down respectively, following a predefined path. At some points in the path they meet up with other groups of spawned units, at other points they diverge and fight on their own for a while.

Creating sorts of bottlenecks and other more open-gank regions.

Isn't that the general idea though? To make something thats just fuckin awsome but other people are all mopey dopey about like "nah thats too much it can't be done" then you show up later and it works and you're like "FUK YEAH BICHEZ I OWN DAT SHIT MUTHA FUCKUH"

Which is why I argued with LoveLess for about 10 minutes to see the light. Not sure what the final verdict was, but I am going to sleep and will continue persuading tomorrow