Staredit Network > Forums > SC2 General Discussion > Topic: DEFENDING the Hosting System in SC2
DEFENDING the Hosting System in SC2
Sep 15 2010, 10:31 pm
By: TiKels  

Sep 15 2010, 10:31 pm TiKels Post #1



Alright, so here I am, putting myself in a position where I'm going with the underdog... But I'm just goddamn sick of all the whiny babies :flowers: going on about how terrible starcraft 2 is, when it's really an enjoyable experience.

First off I'm going to give MY explanation as to why they would use such a unique system. In wc3, for those who have not played it, it was plagued with dota games. Yes yes yes, we know, (assume a pirate voice for this)
Quote
Arrgh TiKels (keke wut a gay name) ye starcraft one list be plagued with a dem0n fouler, the Temple Siege has lain waste to the join list.
Yes, but in wc3 the list is spammed with dota games at least 2x more than OUR list is spammed with Frost>You games. It's not that it's incredibly popular, it's fucking hard to find OTHER GAMES... They likely were avoiding this problem, I can see how it would go down in a meeting, all the people gathered trying to brainstorm a way to solve the dota-spam problem... when one man says "What if we have one for each game on the list.. popularity system.. etc etc." They all love it and it is ratified that night. This concludes the section where I explain why I believe the system came into being.

One on one issue tackling:

Here's a relevant post:
Quote from name:Me
Quote from UnholyUrine
Quote
EDIT: Also, about trolling Blizzitch,... I wonder if someone could do a DDoS-style mass upload of porn... Get a botnet, flood Battle.net with pr0n maps?
Man, I'd buy SC2 to just see that (no not reli)

But it won't work anyways, because ANY new maps won't be popular due to its current system.
Unless we team up together and play those maps and advertise it 24/7 lol
Untrue, the system works a lot better than you think... if you filter by new games, it takes only 20 plays per hour to get on the first page, and 5 plays to get on the second. If you play the game with your friends only a COUPLE of times you have a high chance of skyrocketing to the top, if it's a good map, that is.
Proof of concept: impossible probe, a game released by payne is on the first page of "Show New Games Only".
Though the numbers fluctuate, they still remain within a reasonable area.

Alright but someone may be saying something like
Quote
TiKels you noobcake, games like long single player RPG's will never have a chance because they take so long to do per player!
You would think for a moment this may be true, but maps that can be played with one player get boosted up more easily.
Example: A map named "Unit Test Map" recently got on the first page of the GENERAL list, (not NEW GAMES) simply because it had one player, even though it was a piece of crap.

Quote
Sir, maps that have too many players never get high enough because it divides the number of plays substantially because it takes more people to start a game. Eegad what a terrible system.
This is a bit of a stretch, but maps that have high player counts, PvP maps, are replayed much more than long single player rpgs. For example, compare labrynthos to Random Micro Arena. You play one of them ONCE or TWICE, and the other you would play 50+ times. The only matter is getting your game out there, which isn't hard (as explained above).

Pose more problems, I desire to give blizzard a better name. :flowers:



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Sep 15 2010, 10:49 pm Ahli Post #2

I do stuff and thingies... Try widening and reducing the number of small nooks and crannies to correct the problem.

The current system isn't complete useless. It just needs a search and other sorting aspects.

Anyway, it still lacks support for some host generated input like the player's wish for a special game mode. Players simply get into a random game instead of a game which they can specify (e.g. dota with random heroes instead of chosen ones).

However, it is still the fastest method to get into a game, if you do not care about the details. That's the aspect I really like and that's what I really love in melee games (BIG THX BLIZZARD).

I've always been for the old method of hosting maps as a second mode of hosting games. So I wish both systems would exist equally side by side.
E.g. if a player wants to play a map and he wants to play versus beginners only because the pros would complain about him because he is new to that map, he could do that.
Atm the system is totally random...

I guess that the Custom game players number will raise when many high quality maps exist and melee starts to bore players (atm it is still interesting because it is new and there are new tactics and stuff).




Sep 15 2010, 11:01 pm TiKels Post #3



Quote from Ahli
The current system isn't complete useless. It just needs a search and other sorting aspects.
Go to Create Game. Popular. The little dialogue box at the top right that says "Search". Good job. You just searched the entire game list.


The system was designed to minimize waiting in the lobby, you don't have to worry about who is playing what, it is supposed to be decided in-game, although this is inconvenient to map makers and other reasons.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Sep 15 2010, 11:05 pm payne Post #4

:payne:

The solution to the current B.net 2.0 is -so- easy:

Put a ranking system forced to players when they end their first game, and then ask for an update every 20 games.
Let people have their Custom Name Game List, and sort all the Custom Games under each map's category. Like that, you have let's say 1020 different custom game names under one DotA folder that is meant to contain the custom games of the same map file. Sort those custom games by time-creation, starting with the oldest and show their lobby status (number of players that have joined).

Gg I win.

I remember I had posted a design of this concept on the Battle.Net forums, but I can't get to find a ''Find my threads'' button (I've created only one. :P).



None.

Sep 15 2010, 11:14 pm TiKels Post #5



You may now refer to me as God, payne.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Sep 16 2010, 12:09 am FatalException Post #6



Quote from TiKels
One on one issue tackling:

Here's a relevant post:
Quote from name:Me
Untrue, the system works a lot better than you think... if you filter by new games, it takes only 20 plays per hour to get on the first page, and 5 plays to get on the second. If you play the game with your friends only a COUPLE of times you have a high chance of skyrocketing to the top, if it's a good map, that is.
Proof of concept: impossible probe, a game released by payne is on the first page of "Show New Games Only".
Though the numbers fluctuate, they still remain within a reasonable area.
And who uses the "Show new games only" sorting option? Who of that group uses it more than the "Popularity" sorting option?
Quote from TiKels
Alright but someone may be saying something like
Quote
TiKels you noobcake, games like long single player RPG's will never have a chance because they take so long to do per player!
You would think for a moment this may be true, but maps that can be played with one player get boosted up more easily.
Example: A map named "Unit Test Map" recently got on the first page of the GENERAL list, (not NEW GAMES) simply because it had one player, even though it was a piece of crap.
Err... care to explain the logic behind your claim that Unit Test Map is on the first page because it's single-player? How does that follow at all? As far as I know, people use Unit Test Map because it's useful for them as a--no one will see this coming--unit testing ground, so they can figure out counters or try to find the new "muta stacking" (i.e. exploits for use in micro).
Quote from TiKels
Quote
Sir, maps that have too many players never get high enough because it divides the number of plays substantially because it takes more people to start a game. Eegad what a terrible system.
This is a bit of a stretch, but maps that have high player counts, PvP maps, are replayed much more than long single player rpgs. For example, compare labrynthos to Random Micro Arena. You play one of them ONCE or TWICE, and the other you would play 50+ times. The only matter is getting your game out there, which isn't hard (as explained above).
If anything, this helps to disprove your previous point about single-player maps quickly becoming popular because they're single-player. It's true that multiplayer maps get more plays, but it doesn't really help your case, because the amount of plays your map gets grows based on how many plays your map gets, so you have to start with something to get anywhere.



None.

Sep 16 2010, 12:37 am TiKels Post #7



Quote from FatalException
And who uses the "Show new games only" sorting option? Who of that group uses it more than the "Popularity" sorting option?
New games are sorted by popularity, it's a filter not a sorting option. Go to join game, top right, the check box "show new games only" support your mappers.

Quote from FatalException
Err... care to explain the logic behind your claim that Unit Test Map is on the first page because it's single-player? How does that follow at all? As far as I know, people use Unit Test Map because it's useful for them as a--no one will see this coming--unit testing ground, so they can figure out counters or try to find the new "muta stacking" (i.e. exploits for use in micro).
I never actually played the game, it was presented to me by devourer as being a reason why "single player games are unfair cuz of too many plays"
Regardless the point still stands.

Quote from FatalException
If anything, this helps to disprove your previous point about single-player maps quickly becoming popular because they're single-player. It's true that multiplayer maps get more plays, but it doesn't really help your case, because the amount of plays your map gets grows based on how many plays your map gets, so you have to start with something to get anywhere.
If you make a good map, show it to their friends, they show it to their friends simply because it's awesome, you've already got a startup.

It doesn't DISPROVE anything, it just proves that there is "balance" between all game types.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Sep 16 2010, 1:57 am payne Post #8

:payne:

To anyone too lazy to click the link:

Quote
tl dr;
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9744/bnet2sugg.png

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The way Battle.net 2.0 sorts the Custom Map is the source of a lot of frustrations. The disadvantages has been named numerous of times, so I consider listing them once again in here would just help losing the attention of the readers.

Let me directly get to the core of the situation: the improvements.
Here's an image I drew quickly that I will use as reference all through this post:
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9744/bnet2sugg.png

Note: I left anything that wasn't to be changed blank.

So, as you can see, there's a lot of new features.
Here's a list:
- # HOSTED - Designate the numbers of Lobbies that are created and hasn't started yet.
- MODE - (Removed). Mode is now useless (and was already, if you want my opinion) since people can choose to declare whenever Mode they want in the "CUSTOM NAME". Players of StarCraft 1 always managed to tell if they wanted "NO RUSH" or that kind of things from inside the Game Name.
- RATING (#) - Once a game ends, ask the players to rate the map. Of course, let them decide if they want rate it now or later (in other word, add a "Don't vote now" button). The orange number in parenthesis represents the number of unique players who has voted. Players would be able to change their vote at any time they'd want from inside the Game List simply by pressing on the star that represents their new rating. This last point is for three things: 1) Do not unfortunate people with the rating system more than once per map, else it'd get annoying, 2) People can change their mind, 3) People who did not rate from inside the game can do it from there.
- Plus/Minus - When pressed, shows the information related to every single lobby created at the moment.
- PLAYERS - Indicates the number of players actually in the lobby listed. Color could be optional, though it helps the player to quickly interpret information.
- CUSTOM NAME - To differentiate every lobby created.
- HOST - For general purpose... Optional.
- Sorting - Allows people to sort by "Popularity", "Rating" and "Time created".


I'd also like to use this thread to give a few more recommendations:
- The ability to do "Quick Remakes". When a game ends, some players would love to ensure they quickly get a rematch, with the same players. Adding a button "Ask for rematch" along with the "Score Screen" and "Return to game" would achieve such a thing. The first player to press the button would automatically become the Host of a new game of the same map. Other players, if they haven't left yet, would receive an alert message saying one of the players is remaking the game. They could thus click on the same button to follow this player and ensure themselves a Quick Remake!
- The ability to see the Achievements we can earn from a Campaign Mission -before- starting it. It would've saved me a lot of time to actually know that if I had done 'x', I'd have gotten an additional achievement without much effort.
- When you'll implement the chat rooms, take in consideration some people dislike those. A simple way to make them happy would be to require players to click a "Join chat" button in order to show the chat rooms.
- Please set the default Lobby Delay to 7 seconds. Waiting 30 seconds because some mapmakers do not know about this "Game Variants variable" is really annoying and a lot of people are complaining about it.
- As it is right now, a map appears to be created by the person that published it, which isn't always the case. I suggest displaying the name that is entered in the "Author" field from "Map Info..." (entered from within the Editor)? It'd make much more sense and would permit to mention all the authors of the map (there can effectively be more than 1). Of course, if no value is entered in this field, go on and display the publisher's name.
- Give the players of a Party that aren't the Leader the option to "Suggest" a game to the Leader.
- Do an auto-save when someone clicks the "Quit campaign" button. As it is right now, if you've finished a mission and spend your credits before leaving, your recent actions (credits spent, research done, etc.) aren't saved and you must do them again.


To help Blizzard's Staff, I'll keep this post updated.

Here are some great additional suggestions made by other members to improve this template even more:
- Possibly implement a rating "out of 10" instead of 5 to increase the precision.
- Clicking on the Map Name's instead of the "+" will automatically make you join the "oldest" lobby.

I guess that's about it.
I hope this actually gets a minimum of attention as I have put a lot of effort into producing this post. Please, Blizzard, have the decency of replying with your opinion over every single suggestion I've done.
Again, to everyone: please post if you agree with my statements, it'll keep the thread at the top of the list and increase the chances a member of the Blizzard Entertainment's Staff reads it.




None.

Sep 16 2010, 2:05 am MillenniumArmy Post #9



The main problem with the Custom Game listings isn't the system itself, but the people. Most people are too stupid or lazy to do anything but play maps on the first page.

I really like what Blizzard is doing so far



None.

Sep 16 2010, 5:55 am Lanthanide Post #10



payne - Blizzard stopped people being able to make custom game names, and added in all the auto-filtering crap to stop people from being able to spam/cuss in the join game list. As your solution lets this happen all over again, Blizzard won't go for it.



None.

Sep 16 2010, 10:51 am payne Post #11

:payne:

Quote from Lanthanide
payne - Blizzard stopped people being able to make custom game names, and added in all the auto-filtering crap to stop people from being able to spam/cuss in the join game list. As your solution lets this happen all over again, Blizzard won't go for it.
What's wrong with spam/cuss in the join game list? It's a little con compared to all the pros that my system brings. ;o



None.

Sep 16 2010, 10:36 pm TiKels Post #12



Quote from payne
Quote from Lanthanide
payne - Blizzard stopped people being able to make custom game names, and added in all the auto-filtering crap to stop people from being able to spam/cuss in the join game list. As your solution lets this happen all over again, Blizzard won't go for it.
What's wrong with spam/cuss in the join game list? It's a little con compared to all the pros that my system brings. ;o
Blizzard is going for maximum accessibility and age range in their game, blizzard chose this hosting system OVER their old one. Remember that. THEY CHOSE IT OVER the old one. Remember that time period when starcraft 2 was done completely (apart from balance) and they were working on the actual Battle.net they were going to use? Yeah. This is the product of that. I'm sure they had a bunch of workers sitting in a think-tank pondering all the things they could do and their ramifications... I'm not saying their logic could be impeccable, but. Implying that they should "switch back to the old system" only leads one to believe you haven't even thought about this system at all.

First off did you even read the first post? I said WHY I believe the system was chosen... to avoid "dota" spam overtaking the list entirely. If you don't understand what I'm talking about go buy wc3 and try and play a game other than dota. Hosting games is a pain, it takes forever for them to fill up. With the new system, popular games fill up basically instantly.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Sep 16 2010, 11:35 pm payne Post #13

:payne:

The system I'm proposing prevents any Map Spam since it encloses all the Custom Game Names under one folder that the user decides or not to open to show the list.
Also, popular maps would be filled pretty quickly with the Custom Game Names as well... :/
Lets overview the dota-spam problem: if people weren't retarded and actually understood the same map was hosted 10 times, they'd leave their lobby to go join an other one. It's as simple as that.



None.

Sep 17 2010, 1:50 am NudeRaider Post #14

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Problem is you cannot change how stupid people are so you have to have a system that caters to dumbasses.




Sep 18 2010, 10:38 pm TiKels Post #15



A lot of them were bots or "auto hosts" that were empty games. I don't know how this works.

If you try and formulate the argument "oh that doesn't count, people just set up bots to spam the list" no, you are wrong. Game got popular, people set up bots, not people set up bots and game got popular.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Oct 8 2010, 8:36 pm NicholasBeige Post #16



Interesting to see someone actually supporting the popularity system...

In theory it is good, and it works well. But in practice, it lacks a lot of polish and features (that one might expect from a software giant like Blizzard).

Imagine a 'Filter' menu. Where you can create and add filters and fine-tune exactly what maps are visible to you when you decide to 'Join Custom Game'.

You can decide things such as:
  • Author of Map - Name: Cardinal AND Scoob AND Petros AND tinyhammerman (just examples...)
  • Date of Publication: <6 months
  • Game Mode: Capture the Flag
  • Game Mode: Survival
  • Game Mode: Aeon of Strife / Dota
  • Average Game Length: 30 to 60 minutes.

You would think that Battle.net 2.0 makes use of meta-data - information created through the game being played. The last point on my list is meta-data. Or, map makers could create this information and store it in their map and it could be used by Battle.net 2.0...

Imagine a Battle.net 2.0 where you're logging on before going to work or school, and you have 20 minutes to play... You know 20 minutes isn't enough for DotA.... so you decide to change your filters and find a new map. Something uploaded in the last 48 hours, with a rating of 'Unknown' (meaning the game hasn't been rated sufficiently yet, and therefore not played), and of game type: Tower Defence.

This Tower Defence map you play could be ultimately the best, most well polished map that you have ever played. So, when the game finishes, you Rate it. And you decide to Star it, so that it is kept in your favourites (a separate Filter displaying only Favourites could be available).....

This simple filtering & metadata implementation would allow the 100,000's of players logging on to battle.net to each see their own personalised view of the Map Listing. Which, in the absence of chat-channels would create niche-communities and groups of players who enjoy playing certain maps, mods, modes and game types...

My two cents... I am so firmly rooted against the current inefficiencies of the Popularity System that I cannot even begin to comprehend your point of view TiKels :) sorry!

quick edit

Just exploring the idea of a Rating system further... Everyone who has played a map, should be allowed to assign 10 points to a map... These points could be negative or positive. Meaning every map on Battle.net would have a rating between -10 and +10. And, a further idea is to give Players who have Published 1 or more maps (which have high ratings/plays per hour) is to give them weighted points. So that a distinguished member of the map-making community, can place a vote on a map and this could FLAG the map to Blizzard for possible Featured Status. Or if a map gains a rating of +9/+10 in a very short period of time (suggesting people fuckin' love it), then Blizzard should open their eyes and Feature it...

Instead of such a linear and one-dimensional popularity system that only takes into account 'Number of Plays / Hour'...

another quick edit... the more I think about the current Popularity System... the more I think it can be vastly over-hauled / improved

People should also be allowed to leave a comment alongside their Rating for a given map. These comments should only be visible to the Author / Publisher of the map - and will allow steady incremental improvements to maps (provided the Author is dedicated and spends time patching and updating his map)...

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 8 2010, 8:42 pm by Cardinal.



None.

Oct 9 2010, 3:44 am UnholyUrine Post #17



From the words of probably one of the geekiest starcraft geek (who self-admits that he don't attend parties XD)



and a quote from the description
Quote
(A quote from their feedback forum)

"Say that blizzard is a restaurant, Starcraft 2 is the food they serve and battlenet 2.0 is the waiter that brings you the food.

Now the food is hands down awesome, it's the best thing you've ever ate, in fact it's so good your mouth orgasms when your tongue touches that culinary delight.

How ever the waiter is a dick.

He doesn't allow you to talk to any one else at the table, but you can whisper to some one close to you as long as no one else hears what you're saying (no chat channels).
When you see some friends of yours at the next table he doesn't allow you to get up and go to them unless you order the exact same thing you've ordered at your table once you reach their table (no xrealm)
If you want salt on your food you have to pay extra, if you want pepper you have to pay extra, if you want to use the napkin, you have to pay extra, if you want a tooth pick, you have to pay extra, if you want to go to the bathroom you have to pay extra (map marketplace).
While you order the waiter places a microphone under your table in order to gather personal information about you, information that he will use to make statistics and sell to other restauranats.
Sharing food between you and your loved one is completly forbidden since there have been case where people would eat for free by doing this (no lan)
The plates, knives, forks and the dinner table are filled with adds.
At the end of the lunch you can't see the whole bill, just the first 2 items you've baught and how much the overall price is, but not the price for the individual items (no world wide ranking)

Now would you WANT to go again to the same restaurant? Even if the food is good?

Would you really be surprised if some one would say "let's not go here anymore until they fire that waiter?"
Wow.. you don't know how much respect i've gained for husky through that video. There're places where he almost raged.. I would've raged at least 100 times.




Strictly for laughs.. but also a good point:
http://www.staredit.net/topic/12629/

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Oct 9 2010, 3:54 am by UnholyUrine.



None.

Oct 19 2010, 12:47 am PIESOFTHENORTH Post #18



Bumped payne's thread on the forums because I hadn't seen it before now.



None.

Oct 19 2010, 2:04 am Neki Post #19



I'm not sure this has been brought up, but assuming Blizzard wanted a port of DotA to Starcraft II, I'm not sure how they expected it when their own hosting system basically dampers DotA so badly. Because you can only select the map itself, the host has to inform you in-game or in lobby what kind of game mode it is and any specific settings. Basically you would have to join the game, ask what kind of game it is, decide if you wanted to play that, and eventually wait for other people to fill in before you even got a game started. If you ever played DotA on Warcraft III, it was basically instant joins for games and after a couple of seconds, the game would automatically start. I haven't played SOTS yet, so I'm not sure how they handle that, but this is just my opinion coming from a long time DotA player.

EDIT:
Quote
Anyway, it still lacks support for some host generated input like the player's wish for a special game mode. Players simply get into a random game instead of a game which they can specify (e.g. dota with random heroes instead of chosen ones).
Basically what Ahli said, and looking at Payne's idea, I guess it's a good idea. I just don't know why Blizzard would go from a regular, efficient and choice-heavy system like Warcraft III and basically regress to some archaic form of match-making in custom games.



None.

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