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rockz
Time: Jul 7 2010, 10:28 pm

Post #1 rockz Jul 7 2010, 10:28 pm

おやすみ

Rank: Veteran

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=976870941610001004#
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-441640420550012012#

tl;dw

My topic has 2 sections to it:
1. Do you agree with the overall claim of this video (that the Holocaust didn't happen)?
2. What do you think about these conspiracy/documentary videos? Are most of them ridiculous? Or do they tend to make a persuasive argument for you?

My thoughts

If you just read the tl;dw section, please say so.

This is a great wallpaper to use if you want to go into an epileptic fit every time you sit down in front of your laptop, which I guess is a better option than watching Naruto.

Post #2 Vrael Jul 7 2010, 11:09 pm

Rank: Veteran

Quote from

rockz

and the editing that goes along tends to have a highly persuasive effect on me (and I'm presuming many other people). Perhaps a Psych major can shed light on this phenomenon, but it's truly an amazing thing.

A psych major is not required, the phenomenon is caused by the use of rhetoric. The combination of word choice, imagery, narration style, narration emphasis, omission of evidence, focus on evidence, probabilistic appeal, and other techniques are all aimed at proving a point, not at discovering the truth of the matter. In a court case, the prosecution and the defense are both allowed time to give their testimony and evidence, in a youtube video only one side presents.

When watching videos like this, I find in almost every one that the author wishes the viewer to disregard possible explanations for the discrepancies he's found -- despite the fact that it is the explanation which explains the discrepancy! For example, in the first video the narrator wishes you to disregard the fact that the tours given of Auschwitz focus primarily on the "death machine" factors because that's what people are there to see, and instead wants the viewer to interpret this as an intentional "covering up" of the non-genocide aspects of the camp, like the pool.

Post #3 rockz Jul 7 2010, 11:43 pm

おやすみ

Rank: Veteran

I don't think he blames the tour for that, but more for everything that has happened to make everyone want to see only the death parts. What I got out of the video was that you're frowned upon for thinking anything other than the status quo. However, he is vague enough to make it seem like it is a covering up, even though it is clearly not, and any contradictions in the camp are human error.

I'm reminded of Don't talk to Police which is a lawyer talking about how you should never talk to the police, since it's so easy for someone to poke holes in your story. If you make one mistake about something, then you've lost credibility, and your entire statement can be laughed at. (sorry for all the videos, hopefully you've seen most of them before).

This is a great wallpaper to use if you want to go into an epileptic fit every time you sit down in front of your laptop, which I guess is a better option than watching Naruto.

Post #4 UnholyUrine Jul 8 2010, 12:28 am

;)

Rank: Regular

Because the video is so boring that my brain has turned to mush, I'm going to excuse this as a Video of some fool trying to disprove something that has definately happened, while exact events may be skewed.

It is pretty clear that these sorts of people will either ignore or find an excuse for every single evidence of the Holocaust from happening. Moreover, the proofs that he comes up with are completely overshadowed by the proofs that goes against it. Convincing evidence, baby, he's got none. All the lil' things he talk about are mere discrepancies that occur over the decades. Even things said within 5 minutes can be skewed. It's such simple logic.

The Holocaust occurred, any arguments for or against it is a complete waste of time, money, and talent. Debating over this is just as fruitful as debating about the Moon Hoax.

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Post #5 O)MasterJohnny Jul 9 2010, 1:39 am

Rank: Regular

No, I do not agree with the video.

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/zgrams/zg1998/zg9802/980210.html
"This statement is given in an attempt to set the record straight about my current views regarding the Holocaust and Holocaust denial. As anyone who follows the subject of the Holocaust denial knows, from 1991 until 1994 I was well known in the movement as a Jewish Holocaust denier (a self-described "revisionist"). For the last three years I have no longer been associated with this movement, having realized that I was wrong and that the path I was taking with my life was self-destructive and hurtful to others. I have spent the last few years in silence on the subject of my time with the denial movement, a silence caused mainly by my shame at what I had done with my life and my desire to distance myself from that life."

It looks like this David Cole guy is no longer a Holocaust Revisionist.

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Post #6 rockz Jul 9 2010, 4:45 am

おやすみ

Rank: Veteran

ooo, good to know.

This is a great wallpaper to use if you want to go into an epileptic fit every time you sit down in front of your laptop, which I guess is a better option than watching Naruto.

Post #7 Leeroy_Jenkins Jul 17 2010, 4:40 pm

I don't know what to write yet :/

Rank: Regular

Well, there are people like Josef Mengele, which would be an unnecessary and extravagant lie for the 'conspirers' to have created. (among many other things) Also, it's not easy to say about 15 million people died without it being somewhat true.

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Post #8 Centreri Jul 17 2010, 4:43 pm

If I were as smart as I think I am...

Rank: Veteran

Since when was the holocaust 15 million people? :dontgetit:

Post #9 Leeroy_Jenkins Jul 17 2010, 4:52 pm

I don't know what to write yet :/

Rank: Regular

I suppose I should cite my source.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=lpDTIUklB2MC&pg=PP1&dq=Niewyk,+Donald+L.+The+Columbia+Guide+to+the+Holocaust&sig=4igufxQHRCNrkjwRuMt1if_mf5M#v=onepage&q&f=false
(page 45)

Post #10 Centreri Jul 17 2010, 4:55 pm

If I were as smart as I think I am...

Rank: Veteran

The holocaust is not, as noted on that page, typically applied to any but the 5 million Jews. The 20 million Soviet deaths are... something not worth its own name. :flamer:

Post #11 Leeroy_Jenkins Jul 17 2010, 5:00 pm

I don't know what to write yet :/

Rank: Regular

I'm not sure that page says anything about 25 million Soviet deaths.

Anyways, whatever. It's not easy to say about 5 million jews died without it being somewhat true.

This post was edited 1 time, last edit by Leeroy_Jenkins: Jul 17 2010, 5:12 pm. Reason given: ha!

Post #12 Centreri Jul 17 2010, 5:04 pm

If I were as smart as I think I am...

Rank: Veteran

I have my own sources, I actually know stuff.

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html <-- According to this source, there were 9 million military deaths for the USSR during WWII and 19 million civilian deaths, totaling 28 million.

Additionally, no one is saying that they didn't die - the argument here is that they weren't systematically massacred for the sake of it but died because of neglect due to wartime conditions or something along those lines. I think it's bullshit, but saying that five million jews dying means something is wrong.

Post #13 Leeroy_Jenkins Jul 17 2010, 5:12 pm

I don't know what to write yet :/

Rank: Regular

Quote from

Centreri

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html <-- According to this source, there were 9 million military deaths for the USSR during WWII and 19 million civilian deaths, totaling 28 million.

Additionally, no one is saying that they didn't die - the argument here is that they weren't systematically massacred for the sake of it but died because of neglect due to wartime conditions or something along those lines. I think it's bullshit, but saying that five million jews dying means something is wrong.

I was not disputing the amount of military and civilian deaths you mentioned. I was merely commenting on the fact that the book I cited said nothing about it, because your argument sounded as if you were disputing the book's including of said deaths.

This post was edited 2 times, last edit by Leeroy_Jenkins: Jul 21 2010, 2:30 am. Reason given: typo ;)

Post #14 HCM™Aristocrat Jul 25 2010, 1:42 pm

✁ - - - - - - - - -

Rank: Regular

@Cent: Killing people due to ethnic discrimination is genocidal. Killing people is homicidal. Killing enemy soldiers in war is achievement.

Yes, lots of Soviets died; more than every other fucking nation combined in that war. But the deaths were through war, not some sort of ethnic "cleansing" perpetrated by an insane dictator, and thus has less emotional impact for a third-party observer. Plus, that Cold War thing probably made US textbook writers not want to be sympathetic to the Soviets :awesome:

Post #15 Chia-Tyrant Jul 25 2010, 2:34 pm

Rank: Member

Quote from HCM™Aristocrat

Yes, lots of Soviets died; more than every other fucking nation combined in that war. But the deaths were through war, not some sort of ethnic "cleansing" perpetrated by an insane dictator, and thus has less emotional impact for a third-party observer. Plus, that Cold War thing probably made US textbook writers not want to be sympathetic to the Soviets.

Actually, if those numbers include the deaths from Stalin's great purge, then some could be attributed to a "sort of ~~ethnic~~ cleansing perpetrated by an insane dictator". I think about a million died from the purge and several other millions were imprisoned so it's not as bad as the millions of jews and non-arians that were killed.

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Post #16 Centreri Jul 25 2010, 3:37 pm

If I were as smart as I think I am...

Rank: Veteran

Quote

Nineteen million civilian deaths, buddy. How is that... not ethnic cleansing? And, actually, there seems to be quite a gulf and different sources give different numbers. I've found numbers giving only eight million Civilian casualties, and I've found nineteen; however, it seems that nineteen might've been a bit high.

Quote

The Russian Academy of Science in 1995 reported civilian victims in the USSR, including Jews, at German hands totaled 13.7 million dead, 20% of the 68 million persons in the occupied USSR, including 7.4 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 2.2 million deaths of persons deported to Germany for forced labor; and 4.1 million famine and disease deaths in occupied territory. There were an additional estimated 3.0 million famine deaths in the territory not under German occupation.

And no, those numbers don't include the deaths from Stalin's purge.

This post was edited 1 time, last edit by Centreri: Jul 25 2010, 3:45 pm.