Feedback is 200 energy, maelstrom is 52, MC is 87. DA's will usually spawn with 63% energy (of 200 or 250), although a proportion of them will get 100% energy. Because they will use feedback in preference to MC, this is an effective nerf that prevents them from always using MC non-stop.

Extending the DA's MC ability, can you also list the targeted units by Lockdown, Irradiate, and Yamato Cannon?
It's gonna be a huge list, but there are some things need to be changed especially ghosts casting lockdown on probes..

I can't change those abilities in any way at all: MC is pretty unique in that regard.

Those abilities will generally target non-hero units and then the appropriate other parameters (biological, mechanical) and also not target interceptors or scarabs and other odd-ball things.

Also I consider lockdown working against probes as a feature: a way for protoss to counter lockdown against their powerful units.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 16 2012, 6:37 am by Lanthanide.

So i guess that also means you can't control spawn broodlings or whatever other specific-target abilities i have not mentioned.
Also, how's that replay analysis going? I hope it's not corrupted since that happens pretty frequently and would play games I don't recall playing at all.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 16 2012, 8:08 am by HSL....

Seems like spawn timers often hit 0, if this infomration is correct that would explain common replay desyncs http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=109348

Lanthanide make the timer better and make it a actual timer man because the SC timer is very off. have you seen that DBZ RX map? it has a real count down timer on it.

http://www.staredit.net/?file=2515&load=edit

this map here, it has a perfect timer at the bottom of the map, correctly displays "REAL" time instead of the over fast SC timer. It makes the map look probly 100x more professional and perhaps even makes it awesome so it would do the same for Desert Strike, requires only 24 locations but thats not much. please look at map and consider.

Thanks, had forgotten about that replay. Just watched it now. Definitely the infestor, so I'll have another look at what could be happening with the triggers. I managed to re-watch it again while writing this post (doesn't take long at 16x speed!) and while the mothership was initially in the vacinity, at the moment when the brutalisk is stolen the mothership had died a couple of seconds before hand, while the infestor is directly above the brutalisk.

I really hope I can nail the bug this time. I can also add some back-up triggers to try and correct the issue if it happens (which is how the triggers used to be set up, before I rationalised them and made them more efficient around 2.20) but as is often the case they can't solve all cases and there's also a slight risk they could go wrong and backfire.

That guy is wrong, and clearly not using hyper triggers anyway so his theory is of little worth for maps that do use hyper triggers. I've just successfully watched HSL's replay at 16x speed without any issues whatsoever and the countdown timer does speed up with the increased replay speed (which of course it must). One thing that Jack told me is that you can view replays in multilayer - start a LAN network game and when you select a map, simply select the replay and watch it. I have used this method to watch replays at 16x speed that simply wouldn't play correctly in single player - must be something about the human players or something that SP just can't cope with. This didn't work on Rivalz' replay though, which seemed fine until one of the players left and whatever the root cause is behind that replay screwing up when the player left is probably similar to what makes MP replays screw up in SP.

Also I don't think the countdown timer has anything to do with it anyway: I have watched a replay where a probe was moving to build buildings and it failed to create the 1st one but succeeded on the 2nd and it wasn't anywhere near a regular spawn cycle (when countdown timer gets to 0). Pretty much in DS Night the screwup is always that a player fails to build correct buildings and eventually stops building anything at all, and usually it will be very obvious because all of the players income will start increasing and never go down, because they fail to build things to use it up or fail to build extractors and therefore their income never freezes, etc.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 16 2012, 8:19 am by Lanthanide.

It's not "very off", it runs at 16 fps while the game runs at 23.81 fps at Fastest, or 0.672 real time second per countdown second. So 1 minute of countdown time works out to 40.32 seconds of real time, which actually isn't that strange a time. In DS it really doesn't matter anyway, since the countdown timer is just "time until your next spawn". Its really just to know when the next spawn is, you won't really base any gameplay decisions off the current value (except in a "build this before my next spawn" sort of thing). The real player-affecting times, such as gas countdown time, is already displayed for players using the vespene count. It is a little ugly that it doesn't match up with the countdown timer, but no big deal really.

Now for the technical reasons: I'd need to find somewhere to put it on the map, now this isn't insurmountable as I do have some water space that could be used, but it is still an issue. The more important reason is map max. Taking up units to display a timer on this map isn't ideal - using an extra unit for a feature like insta-spawn powerup is obviously worth the tradeoff, but an alternative timer? Not so much. Also if map-max were to occur, you could easily end up with the timer being corrupted because it failed to create the new units that it needed to update the time. Now if I just created sufficient units up front and didn't remove/create them as needed, I'd end up having to have a small stockpile of units on the map somewhere, which would not look professional.


When/if I do go back to working on the Blood Pressure Marathon map, then I will probably use this however, because in my map the times are more player relevant than in this one and I don't like saying "1 minute" until something happens and then using a countdown timer for 1:00 which only takes 40 seconds when I really did want it to take 1 real time minute; of course I could just scale everything up by 1/0.672 but it'd be nicer to use this sort of display and forget about that.

Right, just looked at the infestor triggers and it's bloody obvious

Trigger 1:
When infester DC is 0 & command 1 infestor: give brutalisk/other hero units to Neutral
When infestor DC is 0 & command 1 infestor: steal 1 unit at infestor location, set infestor DC to 28
When infestor DC is 28 & command 1 infestor & random trigger is true: steal 1 unit at infestor location and add 1 to infestor DC (so DC is now 29)

The part in italics means the next trigger cycle the DC will again be 28 after it was decremented, but the trigger to protect the heroes will not have fired so it will be able to steal any hero unit or the brutalisk from the enemy team.

I think I'll just bite the bullet and put the 50% chance of stealing the unit at 0 DC and be done with it. The reason I had it this way to begin with is that the 50% steal only happens from a very small location that is almost directly beneath the infestor, while the regular steal happens from a large location. This ordering means that the 1st trigger may steal a unit that exists in the small location, so when the 2nd trigger fires there is nothing left to steal and the infestor therefore steals only 1 unit for that cycle. The other reason is because I did want it to make the infestor DC cycle longer in the cycles where it does attempt to steal 2 units, so if I did it when DC was 0 and then added 1 to the DC the next trigger wouldn't fire because the DC was 1 instead of 0 and then it would have another chance to fire again on the next cycle.

Qaudruple post, deal with it (looking at you, Devlin!).

Current implemented changes for 2.52:

• Fixed infestor stealing brutalisk (and other heroes) bug properly this time.
  
• Nuke will thin out stolen enemy units in your half of the field (similar to infestation/MC)
  
• Nuke will cause enemy units directly on top of your temple that have been stolen to scatter, like the enemy units do. Scattering effect will not last as long as the enemy's however: between 0 and 8 real time seconds, vs 15 for enemies
  
• Nuke BC damage -10% to 2,700 from 3,000.
  
• Armory +$30 to $505, -0.5 vulture spawn to 1 banshee / 1 vulture (back to 2.49/2.50 stats)
  
• Banshee +2 AA to 8, -2 ground damage to 28.
  
• Vulture +2 dmg to 30, +55 hp to 240, +2 armor to 5
  
• Marauder -2 dmg to 18, -1 armor to 3
  
• Hero BC -1 air/grnd damage to 25
  
• Cybercore -$10 to $190, spawns 1.33 stalker up from 1.25
  
• Maximum of 9 tempest carriers on the battlefield at once; additionally spawning ones will be replaced with regular carriers
  
• Interceptors -15 hp, -1 armor to 20 shields 5 hp 0 armor.
  
• Scout +2 AA to 32, -20 shields +20 hp to 80/200.
  
• Dark Archon +20 shields to 140, MC will now no longer target hydralisk, mutalisk, viking, valkyrie or stalkers (effective buff, especially vs terran)
  

Still to implement:
- Diffused spawning over 2 trigger cycles, to better help with map-max during spawn by making it more fair (both teams will spawn a least a few units rather than 1 team spawning 100% and the other spawning less or none).
- Change interceptor invincibility so all interceptors are invincible at the same time
- Investigate hallucination and whether any changes need to be or can be made to ensure usage of it

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 16 2012, 9:57 am by Lanthanide.

About T v. non-T 1v1 games, I still find it very hard for Terrans to win even with the significantly increased buff of Nuke. Suppose the opponent has used MC or Infestation at 0:16 and you react immediately by building a silo and the opponent doesn't do anything about it. This gives me the guaranteed damage of 3,000 (or 2,700 with the upcoming patch), but the army vs. army battle in the field is more or less a coin toss. Since I know the nuke will MC the units on my side, it is logical to wait until the enemy units comes into my side of the field and cast the nuke then. However, while I wait to get the right timing of the nuke, the enemy units have done a significant damage to my temple.

My suggestion is instead of MC'ing the enemy units on my field, how about MC'ing 50~60% of random units on the entire field? This would solve the problem of purposely waiting to get the timing right while my temple is being battered hard. More importantly, this would make the terran players to use the nuke offensively.

This wouldn't be very easy to do, in a truly 'random' way anyway. Also I'm not sure it would work that well: your newly stolen units would immediately start attacking the enemy units and vice versa, there wouldn't be much of a 'push' as there is at the moment with infestation / MC and the current nuke.

But if the enemy uses infest or MC and steals your spawn, then your countering nuke will steal them right back and deal 2700-3000 dmg to their temple before their units have a chance to really damage your temple?

Is 2.56 yours???

Someone might be spoofing your ID because "You" were hosting it but you did not appear as online in my friends list

He's hosting now 2:53 AM Pacific US

Nope, not mine.

PMed you the file since the spoofer wouldn't allow the DL. Was a good catch, spoofers cannot spoof the friends list




Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 16 2012, 11:16 am by Rivalz.

I created a new account and downloaded it anyway. I was correct - it was the name conflict that stopped me from being able to download it.

His new version won't be popular since it's a descendant of 2.2x or 2.3x and doesn't have the insta-spawn powerup that was introduced in 2.42.

I will steal a couple of name changes from it though: Guardian -> Brood Lord, and current Brood Lord (mutalisk hero, from infestation) -> Leviathan.

well you finally did those changes that I suggested, more AA to banshee +2 more for scout,

k. I think what would cut down on ccmu would be limiting the amount of zerglings you can build or marines, whatever unit can be massed produced in as little as 10 buildings should have a max of at least 25 or 30.

In the battle at the beginning the other guy used boom, so his units attacked the silo and it didn't heal when they died.

Attachments:

(about how I reacted that night and assumed you would remove many units from the game itself)

Well I'll apologize(maturely like an adult)for the way I acted that night about thinking you'd make "bat-shit insane" changes such as removing units from the game when you were talking about removing those units targeted from the DA's mc spells. I was just in a bad mood and wasn't thinking clearly enough. Speaking of bat-shit insane.... Batman would own everyone on here in this game o.O

(About goons being back to the way they were in the oldschool versions of DS Night(under 2.12)


Well looks like the goons are back to 1.33 an 190 cost just like old times in the earlier versions under 2.12, I hope they won't get anymore changes an will stay that way cause goons are not that hard to counter at all I think they die fast cause of their low HP,

@Lanthanide

Thanks, I'll have a look at that when I get home. I am quite interested in how this could happen however, because there should be triggers in place to prevent people from using the boom during the intro cinematic (since a lot of noobs would do that) and the triggers to heal the silo should be unaffected by whether a boom was used or not.