Well if you wanna nerf something else you should look at bcs. Cause they're too OP I made about like 32(or more stargates) and about 10 carriers but they were not enough to stop the mass bcs from pushing even if i used booms I had to use insta an save as the only way to counter them, it should b one bc per science facility, or a bit of an expensive raise, or lowering their attack/Hp/ or armor. Once people make a huge number of bcs they're too OP for anything even sairs, unless zerg makes a sufficient amount of devourers, other than that too many bcs will be too OP for toss itself there is no need for reduction of corsairs(the 1.20 corsairs thing), cause in many games people can still damage corsairs easily by having a good balance of strong units approaching them. if it was back to 1.33 sairs then they'd likely stand a chance against mass bcs. When it comes to corsairs in huge numbers an they cant push through bcs then that means bcs are OP an thats a problem.

2nd, another problem I have to consider is in 2.51 somethings wrong with teh gas chambers, when im trying to make a 4th gas(like the very topleft gas chamber in the corner)the worker fails to make the gas chamber I don't know why the hell this is happening, I'm figuring this is another bug, you be green and try to make 4 gas all the way to the topleft gas chamber and you'll see for yourself that the worker wont make it, even though my worker made the gas chamber after hotkeying it so many times which is frustrating, I'll show you what the problem with the gas chambers is whenever you're ready

Protoss does indeed have a hard time against BCs. The protoss' real counter for them is Mind Control on the Dark Archon, but the problem is if you're going up against Zerg, you usually don't want to get MC because if you get it they'll stop casting Maelstrom, which is very important vs the Zerg.

The real solution to this problem is to allow you to research MC and still have DA's cast Maelstrom. I can effectively solve this once I add EUDs for upgrade detection, but it's a huge amount of work.

I normally play bottom (P1) and normally build my gas from right to left and then down, rather than up and then right as you seem to do. When building in that direction, I often got a case where I would order my probe to build the corner gas and it would move up towards it and then get stuck and not actually build the assimilator. So I'd sometimes sit there with 1500+ minerals before I realised it hadn't built it. To attempt to fix this, I moved the geyser out by 8 pixels. I haven't thoroughly tested whether that solves the pathing issue or not; but it sounds like it may have introduced a new pathing issue if you choose to build up and then right?

Whats an EUD? However yeh the dark archon usually does stupid things like mcing tanks or mcing whichever it likes to mc instead of directly mcing only bcs which I want it to do or mc anything that is dealing massive damage to the toss player, in versions before 2.45 I could easily counter mass bcs when it was 1.33 corsairs/stargate. But now since its at 1.20/stargate, its not easy to take on mass bcs like before. Since the dark archons are too stupid to directly mass bcs when bcs are making it nearly impossible for the toss player to defend against them. If mass tanks are a problem for toss as well then dark archon needs to mc them as well. Since the dark archons are not so smart we need cheap prices for them or more dark archon or more health/armor for them, or if not, then more tweaking with the corssairs to solve this "OP bcs problem after the corsairs has been reduced. I understand you reduced them cause you think they're a lil too OP for air battles and they're webbing. But bottom line is something needs to be done about dark archons or/and corsairs to fairly counter mass bcs, heres my replay an example of me having a toughass time countering bcs even though I had a shiitload of corsairs on the rise. And also yes the gas chamber error is a huge problem, must be another bug in 2.51, dunno why. I'll b honest though and say you've done alot of good work with the triggers in DS for other situations, but once we get through this "hard-to-counter-bcs problems" with giving corsairs or dark archons some tweaking, then it'll be greatly balanced.


Conclusion: theres the replay saying" bcs need nerfing" but I dont really think they need nerfing just something about toss needs to be done regarding the dark archons and/or corsairs.

Attachments:

The topleft gas chamber is where the "probe getting stuck when i wanna build a 4th gas" bug is.

Scout anti air damage should be raised to counter Battlecrusiers
(+2 damage)
High Templar storm should cost 250.
can the computer use Yamato Gun on the Battlecruisers? you should put that in for the hero Battlecrusiers as a one time fire thing.
(to balance difference between scout AA damage upgrade)
also, when my scv accidently jumps say the flags early in game I dont think it should die, I think it should be moved back to my base, same with probes if they jump.

@Hellfire


+2 damage will not be enough,

To counter bcs(as toss) should:

A) the prices for corsair should be reduced

B) the armor or/and health of corsairs must be increased

C) Sairs must go back to 1.33/stargate

conclusion: the bcs don't really need nerfing, just toss air needs a tweak so they can easily(and fairly) take on bcs.

In all versions of DS sairs were never too OP as they always had a fair fight with bcs an terran would still win half the time or toss would win half the time, you get the catch

Not sure why you think corsairs are the best unit vs BC as they have quite low HP and only do 2 damage after you count the BC's 5 armor. Since BC's have upwards of 250 hp, you're talking about at least 100 attacks for a single corsair to kill a single BC. Obviously we have massed corsairs, but a fleet of BCs will be able to take down an equal-cost fleet of corsairs easily.

Seems to me like the real protoss AA vs BCs is scouts.

I'm at work so I can't remember all of the stats 100% off the top of my head, but you can get the cooldown values here: http://classic.battle.net/scc/protoss/pstats.shtml

To work out DPS in real time seconds use this formula: (1 / (cooldown / (1000 / 42)) * ((damage - target armor) * unit size penalty).

Assuming corsairs do 7 damage, BCs have 5 armor, we get DPS of 5.95, while scouts with 30 damage and BCs with 10 effective armor (since scout is a 2x missile attack) have a DPS of 21.64. We can ignore unit size penalty in this case because BC is large and these attacks are both Explosive.

Now it gets more complicated in that corsairs have splash damage over a fairly wide range, but IIRC the splash modifiers are like 50% and 33%, so the corsairs might be doing 2 damage per attack to the BC they're targetting, and 1 or 0.66 damage to nearby BCs. You need a lot of corsairs or very tighly packed BCs to make up the same DPS that a single scout does.


Re: Yamato, this is already researchable. Only the standard BCs will use it, not the Raynor heroes. Each BC can use yamato 2 times without energy upgrade, and 3 times with the energy upgrade (should they live that long, since they usually use it after they've been attacked and it is quite slow etc).

Well I guess something needs to b done with the scouts then to counter mass bcs. this guy went massive carriers even though the terran enemy didn't have enough bcs with him, toss air still needs to be tweaked an if toss air seems to OP then i can easily counter sairs with hydra an mutas or if im terran i'd do goliaths+ wraiths, every unit has a weakness but I still believe toss air needs tweaking, I did make a shiitload of sairs like I showed you in the replay but its still not enough for bcs imo. and that stupid bug(the topleft gas chamber) in 2.51 really makes me rage cause the probe gets stuck. I think the gas chambers look a bit different as they're not all lined up right, theres a different of how the gas chambers are lined up in versions less than .51, i used 2.47 as an example cause i never had problems like this in versions under .51

ok theres 2 differences, 2.47 gas chambers are all lined up an nothing wrong with topleft gas chamber, but 2.51 gas chambers are not lined properly an topleft gas chamber got a problem. Both these replays about the gas chambers (i started the game alone by myself for testing) are only half a minute as i tested it myself by starting the game and then leaving once i was done testing. So its only like 20-30 seconds of testing in both these replays. now I know why 2.51 has the "topleft gas chamber"

Attachments:

Yes, I know the gasses don't line up, I did it deliberately to attempt to fix the issue I outlined earlier.

oh so the gases are now properly lined up again?(like they always were in the older versions)compared to .51

This is what I said earlier:



No, I'm at work, I haven't made any changes.

I just did this change on a whim because I thought it would solve a problem that I personally encounter very frequently. I didn't do thorough testing and didn't realise that it introduced the problem you're describing. I'll investigate it. Exactly what changes I will make in the 2.52 depends on the results of my investigations and it may be some time until 2.52 is released.

oh okay

Experienced the immortal brutalisk bug on 2.51 but unfortunately the replay doesn't appear to be in sync as everyone stops building after a short while.

Attachments:

Thanks Rivalz. I tried watching the replay but as you say, the build orders get screwed up and the game gets out of sync. It seems to happen after the yellow player quits, no matter what speed I run it on (even tried Slowest). Annoying.

If you see it again, let me know. Just checked the triggers and the change to the infestor did indeed make it into the 2.51 release so not sure how it's happening.

Can you steal the Mothership with a dark archon?

Yeah, this guy stole my allies mothership with dark archon then he had both the stolen mothership and his own mothership making him have 2 of them which is very OP so I made a shiitload of dark archons to try to steal his

Yes, Dark Archons can and will steal the mothership.

There are 3 cases around this, 2 of which I can deal with and the 3rd that I don't although I could potentially rig something up:
1. If the CPU player has a mothership, when none of its human team mates have an arbiter tribunal, then clearly the mothership has been stolen via DA and it will be destroyed instantly.
2. If the CPU player has 2 motherships on the field, then clearly one of the motherships has been stolen via DA from the enemy. This stolen mothership will be destroyed instantly (added in 2.50/2.51).
3. If the CPU player has a mothership, when one of its human team mates does have an arbiter tribunal, the mothership could have come from the player or from the enemy team, so it is undecidable whether it was stolen by DA just based on this information.

Now I could potentially add a system that records when a mothership was spawned and died for each team and then use this information for case #3, which would let me determine whether the mothership on the field had been spawned by that team or stolen from the enemy. This wouldn't be too hard to do, although there are some niggly corner cases that can complicate it such keeping track of the team having it's mothership stolen as in #2.

There's actually a 4th case, but it rarely comes up:
4. High templar uses hallucination on the mothership and creates 2 fake ones.

Hallucinations aren't detectable in any trigger conditions such as Bring or Commands, the only way to detect them is to center a location on the unit type and then use a second trigger that says "if location contains 0 mothership -> kill mothership at location". This is what I do, however due to the way location centering works it may take a small amount of time before the hallucinations can be killed off. Very rarely does anyone bother to research hallucination though so this probably isn't too big a problem. Unfortunately there's no way to stop HTs from casting hallucination on motherships, or to force them to cast it on other units (they will only target carriers, arbiters and archons).

Is hallucination really worth leaving in as an option? Some players claim it severely weakens the HTs to the point of making them useless but that could be mitigated by re-balancing the energy used per ability. Due to that, sometimes when playing a mixed team Vs 2 or 3 Protoss I will research it for their DTs to MC if I'm the only Toss.

I have considered this in the past. At one point I did take it out, I believe around 1.8 or 1.9 or so. Some people complained about it not being there so I put it back. The energy costs are sufficiently low that it shouldn't intefere with storm too much. Personally I never get it and I think the only time I've seen it researched in the last 6 months (by an ally) is when someone either did it accidentally or they were a noob.

Looking at Heinermann's AI ability list, they will only cast it when they have full energy, which means at most once per HT. IIRC none of the high templars actually ever spawn with 100% energy, so we may in fact never see this even if it's researched?

Also they target Scouts, which means the base scout unit; in recent versions of DS Night this is actually the Void Ray unit and having some of those hallucinated (with their regenning shields) could actually be quite potent. I might have a look at this and experiment.

Also I'll probably release 2.52 this weekend as jjf has come up with a neat system that helps to make spawning units during map-max more fair and I'd like to get that out there. So if you've got any other bugs to report or comments, I'm listening.