I fully support Unholy's last post and FTS's last post.

This is a SC map we are talking about. Mutalisks 'magically' pop out of the air when I make a zealot at the top of the map.

The way I look at it is how players on both sides view their situation.
MT scenario -
Rine: SWEET! I don't even have to be on this becon to cap it so I can do other stuff! GG!
Mech: FUCK! Now he can leave the becon to run and attack me! My only hope to stop his cap is to soak up 3 mines. RIGGED!

M7 scenario:
Rine: OMG my mines don't cap like they have in every other version I've played WHYYYYYY! That's the only reason I liked mines! GAY!
Mech: HOW DOES IT FEEL TO ACTUALLY HAVE TO STAY ON THE BEACON LIKE EVERYONE ELSE! ahahahahahha! RIP stupid rine!

MY scenario:
Rine: wtf? where'd my other 2 mines go and why is it hurt? w/e at least it's still capping so I can do other stuff. Not like they even end up going off half the time.
Mech: why do I even bother? he's just gonna set some mines than run at me and... huh? Only 1 mine and its got 1 hp? I know if I can just get a lv1 off within its range and manual them at it, it will die, or hey I could even soak up that 1 mine. I just might be able to pull this off...

So you can either make player A joyful, and player B suicidal; player A depressed, and player B on cloud 9; or make them both reluctant but accepting of their situation not sure of whether they or their opponent is getting the short end of the stick.

Or you could have my scenario where everyone is happy!

No. It's basically a rehash of the M7 scenario.

FTS scenario -
Rine: It's not capping the beacon wtf?! That's why I like picking this character!
Mech: Mines - 25 gas. Mine damage - 90 explosive. Rine actually having to sit on his beacon to cap - priceless.
Moose: I really don't want to trigger this...

But the most likely scenario is an even worse one where the rine thinks he is capping it the whole time since his mines remain.

CAFG actual scenario
Rine: wtf? where'd my other 2 mines go and why is it hurt? Its still capping but its got 1 hp! Shit! I'm facing mech hes gona fire at it once and its gona die. You've got to be fucking kidding me i wasted 25 frucking mana to put it on the beacon. Bull SHit!
Mech: why do I even bother? he's just gonna set some mines than run at me and... huh? Wait, just one mine and 1hp sweet. All i gotta do is get near shoot it once and it dies. Then i'm free to micro the stupid rine and use my tanks on him to further increase my dmg since he foolishly placed them on the beacon.

No

Actually it probably would, but that all assumes a 1v1 mech v marine. Most games aren't like that.

lol zany were talking about beacon capping which happens at the begining where it mostly is 1v1 battles lol. Not always but mostly.

True, but still, mech v rine won't happen hugely often, and I would be like,'MY MINES! Yo ally, lets doubleteam this foo.'

And next time I would know not to do that again.

i think marines should be able to mine cap.
think about it. One of marines' main advantage is that he has an advantage capturing outposts at the beginning.

Marine really doesn't have any offensive spells that are player killable

and 2 mines disappearing and 1 mine being set to 1% hp just sounds weird and not right...

and this is off topic;
but i think dragoon's l4 is kind of mana waster ...

u can teleport back to the base, but that's assassin's l1 and i don't know why it should be l4
and being cloacked really doesn't help goon because it doesn't have any offensive spells to kill players..

Actually, I'm not new here, new account. Forgot about the old one after a while away from SC.

Spec Ops needs to buy Stim by building an academy then researching it. He should start with +4 dmg and stim should cost a nice 120 minerals. His L1 should only lay one mine but with some higher dmg. I agree with the previous poster concerning this. Although I don't think it needs only 1 health. I think it should be planted already and have it be moved to the marine for some burst damage; around 150, improving L4 in the long term as well. Not sure how many feel about L4 being improved slightly.

I suggest this for 2 reasons. One, to prevent the Spec Ops rush we've all been known to see, especially against Mech. Two to have the Spec Ops officially be an appropriate counter for the Summoner. The Summoner, I think, here most would agree, doesn't have a totally effective counter. That however, is up for you to decide.

Mech is countered pretty well by Archer and Warrior altogether. He's still not a total victory, he's just too strong against too many other classes. More appropriately I think the DM and probably Volt have too much trouble against him. The Mech's Bike mode should be a normal vulture without thrust upgrade and have +5 dmg instead of +4. Speed Upgrade should cost around 90 I think.

Giving Volt 2600/2000 Shields/HP can be confusing as to which one should be upgraded. On the other hand, it's something one can choose. If you're fighting against Spec Ops go for Armor, otherwise Shields. It's not that complicated, rather just more balanced altogether. His L4 already prevents him from gaining gas, it should just have the cooldown removed. Worst case Scenario the damage and health should be lowered. Otherwise the Health and Damage should be increased significantly to give it a more powerful temporary effect.

To be clear, Volt's L1 should not come with a drain. No version of TS should incorporate this. It's clearly Op no matter how you put it.

Zerg Defenses should not cost gas. 50 gas per terribly weak immobile defense requiring a creep alone is quite expensive. I've stated this before, and it's something terribly simple to fix and badly in need of fixing. By contrast, Bunkers and Ghosts shouldn't feed as much as they do(I don't know if it's Bunkers doing the feeding, I've never clarified this, Ghosts however obviously). Defenses are already extremely weak as is. 1, 55 damage ghost per Bunker. If it's Exp you want, earn it.

Cloak should cost 150 instead of 225. Even if it lasted 100seconds(???Is this right???) you could still only use it about once per night and only without using Storm or Ensnare. Med with a slight increase in defensive abilities is no threat to a well balanced team. DM is too slow in both spell casting and movement speed that if this completely changed the game, then you're not fighting a worthy opponent anyway. Summoner / Mutant alone are still more than capable of handling this. And as already effective counters, it shouldn't impede them much, other than giving the Med and DM slight advantages during the night.

The one class here, I think most would agree is altogether in need of improvement, would have to be LM. LM's L3 has got to be the worst spell in the game by leagues. The only possible purpose for this ability is to destroy Assault/Spec Op's L3. Anyone stupid enough to actually use it in almost any other case is clearly a noob. His L3 should either be switched with Fenix and damage increased to +5 or replaced altogether with something actually useful. His L4 as well is pretty freaking useless. 12.5 Gas per Reaver as apposed to 10 Gas per Reaver is not a worthy L4.

Cannons should become stronger with Spawns. Every spawn level Cannons should gain +5 auto shield regen. This to counter Spawn rush and to allow some semblance of usefulness from base defenses by round 3(Marines)and above.

I stand by this currently, "melee" spawn needs to be made stronger. They're still way too weak way too early. No one should be one shotting spawns by the start of the game. Not even Warrior. Main Base should have a random spawn counter sending a pack of +2 level spawns in a random direction.

The only way to handle Spawn Rush is to either improve base defenses, lower ranged spawn health(Shouldn't be that high to begin with) or remove Spawn leveling altogether. The only notable problem with Spawn Rush is the absurdly low cost. Otherwise it should be just fine as it is. Either way ranged spawn need lower health. The damage difference going from Zealots to Hydralisks is already monumental, the health shouldn't be increasing as well. This especially in regards to Dragoons and Goliaths.

The only problem with these ideas is that, like you guys, I fear this would turn the game into another 1.5. That's certainly not what I want to see. Here's to hopes that some of this is noticed and it actually solves some problems.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 21 2009, 6:33 am by Crackhead.

Well to be honest this is crazy yes until the rine gets stim hes gona be junk, but after he will rape. +3 has already had some serious effects late game because of how much he can rape. +4 is overkill and late game will rape.

A mech that can micro well has no counter. I don't care how you look at it. The only way a mech will die is based on the skill of its controler.

Problem is with neither hp or shield to use he has no effective life early game. either you cut his hp in half because he has no shield ups and spawn rip him apart or he upped shields and once they are breached he has no defense. This would be a serious problem defending some spells.

Agree with this but too much strength and it becomes a 2 lane feeding tool.

cloak is useful in right situations. The medic can gain an offensive buff through claok and disable 2 allowing for easy team kills. This already happens enough with 225 energy.

His l3 provides very nice defense and offense. Anyone that can pick off a lightmage can be killed with this spell. Combine l3 and l1 and they are in for a complete beating. It is fairly strong if it is the main attack upped. It is also useful for picking off flying vehicles which would otherwise annoy the crap out of the templar.

This doesn't sound bad at all

Improving them screws with both the lings l2 and dm's l4. Mainly the L4 because hp makes killing them harder and dmg makes raping easier. If you want to fix a spawn first i say fix zealot. It is a total pos same exact dmg as the rine because of the 2 hit bs. I would like to see a stronger spawn system as It adds more strategy and makes moving spawn arround very nice other than to just block exp.

No comment

Honestly 1.5 isnt that bad. Moose and urine both screwed up the bat. Urine has better spawn and moose more or less the better balance as a few kinks need to be worked out. 2 of the new heros are phenominal and the last is being worked on.



It is not max i can guarentee you this. His ideas are not the same at all and he doesn't even sound like him. Some of the things he has suggested max would drop over dead before he would accept, let alone suggest.

I don't understand what you mean. Summoner gets +24 per upgrade, that's end game rape. Going from +3 to +4 isn't game changing. Putting Stim on research after getting L2 and 120 minerals is as progressive as you could ask for. The Spec Ops doesn't have any scaling abilities. Without that his base damage is all he has. It's not like Assault. Assault doesn't have scaling abilities because he doesn't need one. It's not like Nuking needs a damage upgrade. As far as I know Spec Ops is 2nd worst in terms of scaling, outclassing the Med. That's not exactly a great achievement.


Summoner, Warrior, Archer? Anyone? Yes Mech is amazing with appropriate Micro Skills, losing a little speed in both attack and movement is a regular step forward then don't you think? If you're to pickup Warrior, Archer, and Mech that's a pretty cheap combo. And there's not really a counter to that either. The only way to counter it if even possible would be something like Mutant, Assassin, Summoner. And there's no telling what an equally skilled team could do with that. The problem is, like in all cases, if you're outclassed and outsimmed, it really doesn't matter who's playing who.

Isn't this the case right now? The only difference is upgrading armor isn't viable and it's an instant death if you get EMP. The point then is that you have some balance. Either way you have to watch yourself. On the other hand, I don't know of many who upgrade shields in the early game playing Volt. If you wasted mins doing that you lose exp gain from double spawn killing. The ideal situation is that you have a nice chunk of health left even without shields. The logical choice is still upgrading shields, you just get off a little easier against one insane counter.

You mean like L3? This is another one of these where I don't understand what you mean. LM, Warrior, Spec Ops, Mech, Mutant, Assassin, almost everyone can destroy these fairly easily. At 50 damage and what, 10 armor? This isn't exactly top of the line double lane feeding. With only half damage even hitting the units and being only useful behind cannons, I can't see this being game changing for having an appropriate cost. The best possible use for these is covering the top base or making spores to prevent nuking.

I can understand what you mean here, but, it's still a bitch to be creamed on recovery by any Mut, Mech, Summoner or Warrior on the opposing team. When you have Zone control and brute force as strong as these guys, you need to be able to tap into those extra defenses in order to balance it out.

I get the logic of this, don't get me wrong. Here's the problem, in the event you have anyone with a clue fighting against this guy, they, like me, will just run around the LM in circles or chase him down with ranged attacks. There's no point attacking him head on obviously, unless you're a suicidal Warrior. Chances are L3 in that case really doesn't make that much difference. It's one of these abilities where it's useful where it's useful, it's just not that often that that's the case. I don't see anything really terrible about improving that. Especially since it's aimed at one particular class, being the Mech, and I don't think anyone can argue that he could use some tougher opponents. Otherwise it's another skill in his arsenal against Volt, and I feel sorry for Volt, because he could clearly use some toughening up as well. Otherwise, his L4 blows and needs some work.

Point being, if you can use L3 you can probably use L2 and that's almost always a better option. The only time it's not is when you have a melee comp on your own team.

Thanks. You'd think scaling defenses would have been added already.

Damage wise it's just a matter of giving the bases Zerg Melee Upgrades to make them stronger. Health wise could be a problem with Summoner I think. In that case a large hp upgrade would be detrimental, less so for L4, as killing the spawn isn't really the problem. It's not getting hit by L4. Most of the time that's the key . Zealots I agree would have to be the main focus.

This was part of an earlier discussion. The cost of upping spawn is pretty low when you think of jumping from Marines>Zealots>Hydras. This is pretty game changing obviously. Especially since you can do this at the end of Round 2 for an unbelievable effect. The point I was making here was that the biggest problem here seemed to be the health of the ranged spawn compared with the melee spawn. Hydras at least should have lower health than zealots when you compare the damage difference. Primarily because they can't really be killed by cannons. Of course this can hurt Archer, in which case, who knows?

Until 1.5 has the forced randomizer removed and ED made to stand even the slightest bit of chance against Volt, I don't expect to be jumping for joy at the thought of playing it. It's not a terrible concept, it's just not all that great in practice.

I'm going to leave out the quotes hope you can pick up from here.

*Vs Summoner +4 is fine Vs everything else rine will rape them too early. +4 is same as two +2's not only is this cheaper upgrades now for the dmg he pumps out but as soon as he gets stim its over he will crush any slow character and the faster ones even if stuck for a second due to anything he can literally rip them apart.


**Thing with mech is so many are good micro'ers. I mean i have played mech and i suck at micro and its insane how many people i kill with him. Even minor improvement and you can tackle pros with him quite easily. The speed up is nice But noone seems to want that as it has been brought up before and they have shot it down.


***Volt, no. Right now he can up shields which you may not do instantly but eventually you need to do to avoid spawn and not everyone pumps hp. So when he starts taking dmg he will have half the health and need to heal much more. If under attack he will be easier to pick off. The Simple counter to his emp is l1. Granted this wont work every time but if you pay attention you shouldn't get caught with this ever during the day. The scorge swarm towards anything flying and make quick work of it. Not to mention it only costs 25 mana a fraction what he pays.


****Archer yes it is alot like level 3 and it leads into it. Buffing increases the exp towards L3. Once L3 is going holy crap you thought L2 multi lane feeding was bad what about L3 and ahead of everyone in exp When he starts the L3 feed?


*****For light Mage most need to get a bit close to at least attack him which i know is deadly with his l2 but with enough hp can be extremly helpful because they can avoid powerful splash by running and cutting it in half. The L3 provides a nice trap which is decent defense. Its debateable some are very good with it others very good with l2


******Yea forgot about summoners lings. Hp/ dmg on any of the first 2 spawns would just about screw up either of them.


Honestly i think a few good things have come from 1.5. The Ling's L3 delay is one of the best. I doesn't really help a ton but instead of instant death it gives you a chance. I also like spell combo abilities and some of the double spells where you double cast usually l1 to get a fifth spell which is particularly usefull. If you don't like forced randomizer easiest way is to make it yourself. People have asked for this for a long time though and its nice to finally see it.

+4 with stim is also losing 120 minerals worth of attack upgrades. I do think you're wrong here. Not only that but having required L2 and to actually research it after having built an academy is nothing you can do that early on. We're talking early round 2 at best here, and by the time you get stim we're talking warrior ready with a nice big mana pool and L2, and maybe L3. Even then +4 is purely supplemental. What you can do with +4 you can do with +3. The difference is timing. What you can do in round 2 is totally different than round 1.

Mech is Mech. It has a counter and it can die. The only problem is when you have no one on your own team that can counter him early on. Archer and Spec Ops are about it. It sucks, but it's also part of the game. Later in the game all it takes is a disable or a stun or a mana drain, one time to bring him down. One Mutant passing by with a buffed L3 and that's just all it takes. If I'm playing the Mech I buff my mana first and do a bunch of shifts to prevent me from being hit at all. Even then I know my limits and I know I could just as easily be killed on the recovery for not buffing my health. One stun is all it takes no matter which way you decide to go.

It isn't as easy as you think to kill Sci Vessels with L1. Even if you could kill it it's more than likely to land an EMP before you do. That's a poor defense against a brutal counter. Either way Volt could use a health boost. With or without a shield drop.

We're talking about balancing the cost of the ability not buffing the defenses. What players can already do to counter this you're underestimating and ignoring. 90% of the time his defenses are destroyed before they can even begin to feed from spawn. What feed you get sticking these behind cannons is practically irrelevant. The point being, you're overestimating the damage of these defenses and underestimating the consistent block from the opposing team. Mech, Spec Ops, Mutant, Warrior, Assassin, and Summoner are all capable of destroying these defenses very easily.

You can argue the usefulness of L3 as much as you want and no matter how you argue it it doesn't change the fact that Most LMs that pickup this skill and pump melee over reavers get their asses kicked on a regular basis. L2 does more damage, has more range, and is cheaper. The trapping effect of L3 is irrelevant compared with killing your opponent. Worse still the speed of the kill is extremely important when fighting against Volt, and DM, the ranged damage not entering through swarm, and the trapping effect of L3 being irrelevant against ranged counters. However which way you want to argue it the fact remains, L3 isn't worth half it's weight in mana, let alone being used over L2. It's a bad skill.

The Summoner's Zlings having 80 more health each isn't something I imagine most would jump for joy over. +4 to Zerg Melee upgrades for P7 and P8 is still viable for buffing their damage though.

1.5 added a delay to a skill that's only purpose was landing a series of quick hits. As apposed to simply lowering the damage? No, 1.5 has a notoriety worthy of itself.

Explain how you counter (decent to pro) mech?

archer... with l1... or l3... or l4...

*Gona do my best to compare 15+4 and no stim at begin would severly hamper the rines dmg and he would need a bit of compensation at the begining. So best he is gona hit is 23 and would at least need 26 to effectively kill spawn. This makes it need to be bumped to 18+4 which i'm sure wouldn't be the actual dmg but i don't want to go over board either.

At 10 ups he hits 58 dmg now 1 hiting spawn 1. this costs him 190 total minerals +120 for stim and civ equivalent of l2: +105 for grand total of 415 minerals. compare this to what it would take to reach that kind of dmg for the current rine 15+2 21 ups. 630 minerals this is about 50% more cash and is guarenteed where as 105 of the other is 3 civs.

He may be slow to level but if he had someone to sim for him it wouldn't take him very long before he would crush everyone. not to mention if he got to level 20 for ups he would be hiting a mean 98 dmg per hit enough to crush anyone. This is why that is way too much dmg.

All he would need is to pump hp and cash and get his l2 then his isn't a hero anymore but more of a standard unit. Personally it doesn't matter how early he gets it. Only the end result matters but the quicker the better obviously.

I'm not saying mech can't be killed. I'm saying he can't be countered. That is totally different. Thoes with stunning abilities will have no easier time taking on a mech than those without. The whole key to beating a mech is being able to hit him or trap him. Most traps he can get out of and nearly all lethal hits will be avoided.


**Volt should be running when vessel nears. I have faught bats quite a bit. If running the vessel must move further before emp can be landed and a l1 fired b4 the run/near begining of run will kill the vessel most of the time.

***meh an archer can place very near cannons and if a ranged foe decides to pick on them can go behind them and crush them. I have seen what the addition of a drone does for 1.5 vs m versions. The hydras more often have gone l2 than they use to and l3 is run away once they gain the edge. So i guess best thing to do would be to test.

****L3 for light mage is a better team skill as well but obviously i'm not going to convince you that this skill is worth it so i'm done trying. you are preset in your ways.

*****Grr i always forget about ups. yes that wouldn't be too bad. As for hp i disagree. the current hp is 80 another 80 doubles life. This would make picking off a summoner's lings much harder as they may not die instantly as before and live to run away. They would still be able to feed but not return the feed to opponents.

******the lings instant attack is a extremly overpowered night attack. The delay does not remove the power of this skill it only offers a warning. To compensate for the warning the lurks are placed after the charge up part is complete instead of at the original cast location.[/quote]

Against bike mode? What kind of mech gets in close to an archer? Bike mode means no one can get close. The only way to beat a decent mech is at night with burrows, or a stun, also at night. Otherwise, the mech can just play keepaway.

Even so, it's hard to stun mech in bike mode, transforming makes it even harder.