My 5-element complex model is taking a different direction, so please look at the attached NOW FINISHED xls spreadsheet (MS Excel or Open Office Calc) to understand where I'm going, and see posts as well.

A few months ago, I started trying to think about different element "webs" of what works good against what and such for an rpg map that never got off paper, at least yet. Basically I was having different combinations of elements, and trying to define what would be weak or strong against what. I can post a txt on what I had so far, though some is debatable as always.

But the main point of me posting is to share and get ideas on how to implement these attributes into enemy units vs your spells, or whatever else you can think of, maybe summons, whatever. And by all means, use / play with my structure if you wish, as it may not get used otherwise.

So I'll give you what I'm working with right now. (renewed interest for no good reason, but it might be good for this rpg year contest.) Unfortunately, I lost some work I did on this a couple years ago. This current model with units is very much in its infancy, so I haven't made it apply to the "complex" or "straight" paths yet, complex being unequal weaknesses (with compensations), straight being only 1 for 1 but less realistic. If anything's not clear and you want to know, just ask.

[An excerpt:]
Elements:
[assumed map properties]
4 comp players: 2 nonaggro, 2 aggro, diff ups/techs and diff hp% shield%. (maybe diff shield armor, but that's limiting)

[stats to work with]
Types: small/medium/large, damage type, mostly-shield/mix/hp-only, [flying].
Advantages: damage rate:high/med/low, attack size:high/med/low, hp:high/med/low, armor:v.high/med/low, s.armor(? it applies to whole player), [splash].
Extra possibilities: #units:high/med/low.

3 straight:
Fire>Plant>Water>(Fire)

5 straight:
plant<fire<water<elec<ground<<<(plant)

5 complex: [haven't worked with much yet. UPDATE: With he spreadsheet done (see attached), I hope to find attributes that fit properly.]
earth/water>FIRE>plant (-1) concussion(-1), low hp(-1), splash(+1), very high attack(+2)

fire>PLANT>earth/water (+1) shield or small,

plant>EARTH>fire/lightning (+1)

earth>LIGHTNING>water (0)

plant/lightning>WATER>fire (-1)

Units For Elements: [haven't worked with much yet]

FIRE - firebat, siege(+earth)
PLANT - dragoon
EARTH - lurker
LIGHTNING - wraith
WATER - archon (use null terrain for walk on water effect?)

By the way, I've even researched a bit on elec, and found that if water's pure, it doesn't conduct well at all, and that earth frankly conducts pretty well. Just kinda funny considering things like pokemon and such. I don't really like the whole "opposites are always weak to each other" thing either, as some clearly aren't that way, and it makes for some lack of strategy and complexity. I'd say we can throw the water thing out the window, but the earth thing is weird enough to be annoying. Never thought pokemon had it very straight (played red/blue only) =P.


DISCLAIMER: Yeah it's fantasy, but it's based on real world properties, so there's room for some realism. Less realism means players complain when things don't go "as expected." More realism means you can use your head and figure things out on your own, which is cool.


here's some more info that's less likely to be used in sc due to complexity or being somewhat fail:


And here's a picture of some photoshopping of the 8-element structure I came up with, tho it's still pretty complex even visually. At the bottom, I show one long line from Wind back to Wind, each possible path without loops. The xls attachment is a FINISHED spreadsheet, see top of post and latest posts. [updated explanations inside xls, all major work done, made prettier, split a.rate methods shown now (see posts). 0 entries left to fill out of 363 ie. 100% done.]

*Okay, please look at the finished spreadsheet for detailed information on weaknesses you may take advantage of in SC, including pairs of defenses vs pairs of offenses! This took a lot of thought and effort, so give it a look and ask questions.

Attachments:

Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on Jan 26 2009, 9:29 am by StrikerX22.

If this were implemented into an RPG I would like to see it less pokeman-ish. Plant isn't an element. Ground isn't an element.

Wind, Fire, Water, Lightning, Dark, Light, Earth ARE elements.

Ice and Water cannot be 2 separate elements because they are the same thing > >

Okay, look. You can define a lot of things to be "elements," but NONE of these are elements. And even by fantasy standards, if dark is an element, then plant can be too. "Pokemon-ish" isn't very descriptive.

I'm sorry if I use Earth, Dirt, Ground as interchangeable. It depends on the game. Ice and water are often separate. I mean where do you get these rules from? Obviously Ice is special, and you could just say it's "cold," but that sounds a lot less interesting than Ice (what about chrono trigger? marle's was ICE, frog's was WATER. It doesn't end there. FF series). Plant can be "Life," or whatever, but I like having Plant as an element. I've also considered "Blood" as animal/person essentially, perhaps with special connotations, like summoning or what have you. I probably just rejected it back then because it doesn't fit into a weakness model easily. And if Plant isn't an element, what would you have Fire be good against?

I mean why are you being difficult here? Because that's all it comes down to. Why complain? What you WOULD do if you were to implement this would be to make it, not "see" it. Get it right.

In the end, make your own models, that's fine. I want that. But you don't need to knock this, especially when you have no thought out reason. At least, that's what it seems like.

Don't forget about high/low armor.

I had this feature implemented in an rpg of mine. The heroes were nature warriors, where they could talk to trees, heal from water, and gained extra defense on hot days. Depending which you were close to (water, trees, or hot days) your spells would change. There was, of course, the possibility of mixing the three for a stronger spell. Moogle helped me out with the idea of some spells.

Even though they had spell names and effects that represented Water/Ice, Marle and Frog's menu always said 'Water' For both of them. That is such a great game > >

I don't see why you had to use reply for my whole post, but whatever. Yes, you're right, it does say water. For some reason, both me and my gf (who just finished the game about a month ago) coulda sworn seeing ice... confuses both of us. Either way though, it's stupid to consider them the same. Games make plenty of mistakes like that, which is part of the reason for defining it out ourselves.

Thanks Swarm, not sure how I missed that. Wonder if there was a reason... shouldn't think so.

I would use a scout for lightning, cos it has blue fire.

Lol at above post.

Awesome, striker. You and i think a like. I am actually implementing this in my last stand submission, and I was creating my sort of cycle thing. Mine is a little bit different in concept to yours, however. Some elements were more based on damaging the opponent, while some where intended to cripple them or disadvantage them in some way.

Why ios my post funny?its perfectly reasonably.

Perhaps because it has little to do with the topic as a whole... really I hadn't worked on that part hardly at all, and the way I'm going now, it's likely the units won't "match" at all to the elements involved.

You see, I'm working on a graph right now (because there's just way too many possibilities to keep on paper easily after a long time of thinking and breaking my brain on it...), and after I stop being utterly sick of thinking about it, I'll try to finish the more complicated relationship possibilities. I'll post the early version in the first post, so have at it to see where I'm now going with this.

Does anyone here play Warcraft 3 on battlenet? this topic makes me think of a map called Element TD.

The obejctive of the game is like any other defense, the builder is given the ability to build Elemental towers and combine them to get different towers.
The elements implemented in the game were:
Light-
Dark-
Earth-
Fire-
Water-
Nature-

Some examples of the combinations:
Light + Dark = Twilight
Earth + Fire = Volcano
Nature + Light = Life
Fire + light = Lightning

The developer of the game used combinations that seemed logical, beyond the 5:00 point of the game the elemental differences from the Towers, to the Creeps didnt really matter. It converted into a "Right attack type on the tower... to vs the creeps." type of game... the elemental damage difference kind of deteriorates as physical damage went up.

Hm, considering this poblem, I strongly suggest starting with a set number of elements, and then set units, going around in circles until you can make it work.

I usually start with the vulture, because it has the greatest potential to be customizable. You immediately get that it works great against small things, is slow to shoot and short ranged, and is medium sized. Then, you automatically get thet dragoons totally hammer vultures but are weak against smaller things, which is perfect. Then you have that vultures really do a number on firebats, who can in turn do a number on ghosts, who can kill zealots, who can kill the dragoons off. Those would be a decent choice for units, though the key would be in avoiding unnecessary counters. Dragoons would be inherently neutral against anything but the vultures, though without enough shield/hp ratio, the ghosts would get swamped too, but the ability to stick ghosts close together would outmatch that.

Doing the math will be hard, might take a couple hours of calc to get it working good if you're commited to balance.

Never played, as I've only barely touched WC3.

Basically if I were to implement elements into a map with this non-virtual hp system, i would have to be pretty strict with how one levels. There wouldn't be a normal up your attack 50 times thing or whatnot. Furthermore, I'm wondering if the players should have any attributes themselves. If not, then should there be any elemental summons? if not, will enemies ever attack each other? if none of these are true, then i have no reason to make the enemies have offensive element qualities, but only defensive ones. At least then, I won't have to find just the right unit and stick to that only cuz it's the only one with conc, small, and splash, for instance.

I'm also counting out air since gridding allows for more variety, and i am kind of limiting that variety to begin with.

Right now I'm wondering if I should make the high a.rate class naturally have low d.rate, or just low attack. If the d.rate is low, then it fits nicely into a model of 3 elements, but if you introduce anything else, it'll basically be suck against anything that's not armor oriented, so that'd require pairings of defenses in order to make sure anything it's supposed to be okay against is based a little bit in armor. The more I think, the more realizations I get, but the more complicated it gets = ='... the other option is to let a.rate have only a low attack, but decent d.rate still, but that breaks that nice circle of strengths and weaknesses which will actually match up a bit in my 5-element model.

Either way, anyone looking for simply a Fire>Plant>Water>(fire) or Fire>Plant>Earth>(fire) model can use the first way, showing defensive in middle:
High Attack > High Armor > High Damage Date (lower attack, good attack rate)
High Damage Rate > High HP > High Attack Rate (low damage rate, very low attack)
High Attack Rate > "Infinite" Armor > High Attack (low attack rate, fair damage rate)

Which basically means that one element gets Att+HP, another D.Rate+Inf.Arm, and finally one with A.Rate+Arm. Assign whichever element to whatever. If you're worried about size and weapon type issues, note that shielded take the same damage regardless, tho they can't start with shield ups specific to units... only players. Good for HP-based, then. [EDIT: Inf. Arm denies any advantage, as well.]

I'm still working on the spreadsheet, and there's a lot left to do, as it's a 21x21 grid. That's 441 entries. I've at least been able to get some combos thrown out due to being impossible or very overpowered (like HP+inf.arm or Att+a.rate=v. high d.rate), narrowing it down by 78, and I've entered 108, though reconsidering anything a.rate oriented. So basically 255 left though.

edit @Jabok: yeah that works, but it's very limited and does invite unnecessary counters, likely. My method tries to plan that all out in advance, and then you can pick units based off how well they fit, then you make the necessary modifications. This helps eliminate unwanted counters because you are aware of them immediately, so you can either avoid that aspect or avoid the other, or avoid the issue by combining defenses and offenses. Anything that really just doesn't fit well can be said to be without element or less inclined to it, or a combination of elements.

Also Fire + Light = lol? Lightning makes both of those, but isn't made by either =P

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 22 2009, 7:33 am by StrikerX22. Reason: added note on inf arm for size issues

To be honest, I think that you should also consider (in reality) what each "element" does to another- I mean, it might be a cool twist on your little 7 or 8 - way rock paper scissor match.

Water errodes things away, so maybe you can have a plague(just an example of 1 unit) or something, which is slow dmg, but relentless and continuous. ( I mean think about it : when you put a saucepan in the sink and fill it with water, it doesn't get clean immediately, you just let it sit in there to loosen up the grimey stuff thats hard to get off) Also, Water isn't very solid, it splits up easily, you can stab it and what-not. I would suggest making it vulnerable. Maybe include evaporating things?

Rock on the other hand, maybe would be less vulnerable because you hear the phrase "Rock hard" but maybe have things errode away due to time, so its strong, just doesnt last long.
Wind maybe can be something that has a good attack, stays forever, but isnt very high on HP levels or armor levels... I mean, its just wind...

Fire could be destructive, but it burns out easily if no fuel is nearby. Maybe have things like firetorches (pylons) which have an aura to keep your fire units alive???? Also, To counteract this... "weakness" of having to recharge or maybe camp by these firetorches or whatever, you can have things that combo with eachother, like if you put 2 things together. I know that in my Cat n Mice map, I had a thing with a Match(Regular firebat), and some Fire(DA) that would create a "Lit Match"( Super F-bat; gui montag) when you put them together.

Dark easily can be things that cloak, but also things that can blind, and maybe have a daytime/nighttime thing, like in Temple Siege. When its in the nighttime, they are stronger than usual, but weaker in the daytime. Also, they can be an element that hinder or weaken an enemy.

Light can be the exact opposite, things that heal, augment, and enhance things. Stronger in Daytime, of course.

Lightning is strong, but also may be shorted out easily... Maybe have alot of powerful units and strategies, but each of them have a quick and easy counter.

-----Just something to think about.

Oh and By the way, I would be glad to help you with this map. It seems you have a great idea-map going here, and I would be happy to be a part of it.

This is certainly the kind of post i like to see here. It's a different method. Really, I don't see them as all that compatible, as mine demands a lot as it is, but that's fine. That's part of the reason I made this thread... to get different methods.

As much as I've always wanted to make an rpg map, I have to say my life may get in the way. I would only begin to consider if it were either A) I'm only there for ideas in concept (mechanics/story) and triggering, maybe some on my own, or B) it's a low-key project that I wouldn't feel in too much of a hurry to do my part. I do have a little more behind this in the way of a simple plot and a mechanic here and there, but I'm not 100% sure my elements system will pan out. That doesn't mean it was pivotal, though. I just wish one sc rpg out there really showed elements as being something special, and not in the 5 samurai (or whatever it was called) way.

After SC2's finished, I may go the route of using Game Maker or something and putting effort in things with less boundaries that I could actually show off as completely my own. While SC's here and dominant, I like it too much to concentrate on making things from scratch =P. Though SC2's map making will be alluring, I'm getting older. Building an rpg from scratch would be so much less limiting though.

Edit: I also wanted to mention that there are 4 comps (as said in top post) i figured I'd have to work with, so that i can give altered stats to different creatures to basically make other ones. I thus decided I'd rather not have any naming of units, unless via an analyze spell or what have you. This is not counting the comp that would be used for true experience, but I've considered team exp and even making the party stay within a certain distance to make sure no one sits around getting exp for nothing, and to encourage teamwork in taking down strong single enemies with or w/o spells of their own.

Edit:I don't know how I missed this post...
Yeah that method's interesting and forces you to adapt to your surroundings, which is pretty neat. It's similar to the elemental days in Seiken Densetsu 3. (Secret of Mana was 2. This is different, mostly more awesome.) In SD3, your spells of the day's corresponding element simply increased in strength like 25%, but that's it. And day and night I believe did a similar effect to dark and light. And on "mana holy day" inns were free! =P But yeah, it'd be cool if a bit more happened then that, and not just from something random like a day change. Care to share your map?

forgot to add, xls spreadsheet is updated. 45% left to go in entries, spruced it up a bit and took out some "fuzzies," while making double entries for the two a.rate possibilities (effects d.rate too, and i've considered it having to do with conc/expl too, since they need a bit higher d.rate, but i've basically ignored that for now in favor of simple tweaking yourselves.)

Some random trivia for those who actually have something good to say anyways... don't answer unless you do, or you'll be spamming. - - don't answer if you have to look it up =P. I just was coming across these as I researched. They are important to this topic. If you really don't want this here mods, just edit this out please.
1. How many small units have an explosive attack? (I don't mean splash)
2. How many medium units have an explosive attack?
3. Rank these units in hits per second on a single target:
(alphabetically: Archon, Firebat, Probe, SCV, Zealot, Zergling)

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jan 22 2009, 10:30 am by StrikerX22.

It'll be weird going by elements if the unit doesn't look like the element it represents. (e.g. a Firebat representing Water)

1. TOTAL OF 1: Spider Mine (if that counts), nothing else
2. TOTAL OF 4: Dragoon, Hydralisk, Hunter Killer, Fenix (Dragoon)
3. Going by cooldown: Zergling (with adrenal glands), Firebat (with stim), Zergling, SCV, Archon, Firebat/Zealot/Probe/Drone (same cooldown)
Going by my judgement: Zergling (with adrenal glands), Firebat (with stim), Zergling, Archon, Firebat, Zealot, Probe/Drone/SCV.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jan 23 2009, 12:01 am by ForTheSwarm.

You see, you did EXACTLY what I said not to. Please actually say something in your post before posting again. I'll read it, trust me. If another person does this, I'll remove the trivia. I also refuse to say if it's right or wrong (as much as I want to) until the post is fixed, though I wasn't intending to early anyway. It also would have been better if you had answered the question correctly, ie. saying numbers instead of units. And of course you can look them up.

More on topic, I've come much closer to finishing the spreadsheet. All the singles are finished, and I only have 55 remaining entries. If you want me to upload this version early, just ask. My gf might cut my productivity soon is all =P.

Alright, the spreadsheet (xls) is finally finished and uploaded to the first post! Please take a look. Ask questions if you don't understand some things or whatnot.