have dollar... U.K: tell you what, if we give you the oil you can give us the pound equivalent in dollars. So that means you earnt the service you need but now you owe them service but since the services are no longer a value to anyone only money, the reserve will never be re-imbursed with the value it is worth creating an ever expanding debt. So vrael, is that the proof you needed? sorry about the posts, char limit on PSP...

http://forex.com/
It's a currency trading website. Nowadays it's quite easy to take your dollar and make it into a pound, no big deal.


I agree with Shocko, you haven't provided for us the full story Kellimus.


1). You have not clarified the story for us. Is my understanding correct? Answer this first please so that I may continue arguing about it, else I shall have to mke an argument for many possibilities.

2). International Trade:
GlobalDevelopmentMatters.org
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_trade (wikipedia definition of)
www.trade.gov/ (International Trade Administration)
www.business.gov/guides/import-export/
www.sba.gov/aboutsba/sbaprograms/internationaltrade/index.html
http://forex.com/ (Cited this above, international currency exchange website}

3).
United Kingdom, Ireland, Russia, Ukraine, China, India, Japan, Sweden, Luxembourg, Germany, France, Spain, South Africa, South Korea, Mexico, Canada, Argentina, Egypt, Turkey, AND!!! United Arab Emirates.
Think all of these print a currency? Do they all have banks? Do they all make loans?

Now, in your reference to "do not include Notes of any kind," that is ludicrous. If national notes are the standard of value, then they must be included as a means of currency. You have no grounds upon which to base an exclusion of all material except for "gold and silver" because the assumption would be that they are valuable in and of themselves. Sure, gold and silver are generally valuable, but that is because people place a value ON them, just like people place a value ON paper money. There is no distinct difference between the two in terms of how they become valuable. Take for example, a bunch of men stranded on an island. What good would gold be to them? They would trade in fur to keep warm, wood for shelter, and food, for instance. Now say, they find it annoying to measure out exactly how much wood and fur they are going to trade, but they happen to have a pot of gold. So they agree to use the gold for currency, which simplifies things. In this case, gold functions precisely as paper money does. It has no REAL value, it's simply something they use for simplifying trades.

Kellimus, metaphorically, you can run and hide all you want by not answering any of my questions or mutually agreeing to any statements, but based on the length and substance of your responses, I'm cornering you in anyway.
If you do not submit reasonable responses or answer questions, I'm going to ask someone to moderate our discussion for reasonableness (though no one might agree), and if that doesn't work, I'm done arguing with you.

I'm not running from anything, you are hell bent on the fact that America has 'money' when we're running off of a Debt Economy (you have still yet to prove to me how Debt == REAL Money) that has ruined the rest of the world when Debt Economies destroy the very fabric of a Free Economy society.

Do you think America can run if there are no Corporations or the Stock Market???? No, because we are so dependent on Corporate Entities and the Stock Market (which is all fake 'money' to begin with) and a Elastic Debt Economy if we were to go back to United States Notes, we'd crumble because of the DEBT we owe to the world.

1). Kellimus, you have yet again failed to address anything in my post.
2). I am not going to prove to you that "Debt == REAL Money" Debt and money are two distinct things. I never claimed that money was debt, or debt was real money.
3). America would have a difficult time running without corporations and the stock market, I certainly agree with that. However, the money they use certainly isn't fake.

At this point I think I need to find someone to read over our discussions and point things out for us. I would do it myself but naturally you would call me biased and you would have a point since it would be a conflict of interest. However, if I can't find anyone to read over this, I'm done arguing with you.

Federal Reserve Notes are not backed up by anything except Debt and our Promise to pay that debt. Do explain how that's 'money'.

Mexico, for the majority of the 20th century, ran on pure debt. In a period of a decade, they managed to get their treasury into 100 billion dollars of debt. Note that this value is in dollars, and that is was in the 1960's. All this was to create a BETTER society for Mexico. Did it work? No. It created an "economy from running this Debt and Credit." I thus proved that the U.S.A. is not the only country with our problems.


That's the whole point. No one's paper money (be it in China, Britian, or the US) is really backed by anything any more. It's all based on the fact that a person BELIEVES their money has value.

No! I've already gone through this!






Don't you see? Without actual valuable goods, there would be no money. If all we had was dirt, the feds wouldn't need to print money because it would be worthless. But we have ferris wheels, laptops, cars, planes, trains, scuba gear, swimming pools, television, ect. These ARE ALL VALUABLE GOODS. THAT is what back up money. If there were no values to transfer there would be no standard of value to transfer. Money would be useless without valuable goods so far that it REQUIRES valuable goods to exist.

A_of-s_t, we did not need the argument made again, and I was hoping for a higher caliber of help, but thanks anyway (if this was a response to my PM for help).

You stated what I stated in different terms. Good job wasting a post.

You and I stated completely contrary things.

Your Assertion: No one's money is backed up by anything. It's simply useful because people believe it is valuable.
My Assertion : Money IS backed up by valuable goods, and that is why it is valuable.

It was not a waste of a post at all, in that respect.

We EXPECT that what we want will cost so much. It isn't backed up by the valuable goods, the goods are valuable BECAUSE they are backed up. An IPOD is only worth a lot because we consider it valuable, if we thought contrary, it would be worthless. Its not that products that influence the money, its the amount of money we WANT to pay that influences the product's value.

In essence, we said the same thing, there is a correlation between money and valuables -- money is no longer backed-up in the traditional sense. I really don't know what we're trying to prove or solve, so I'll end my participation here.

First, be clear about what you are saying. You and I stated completely contrary things in the previous posts. Based on this last response, what I think you are trying to say is that ALL things are only valuable insomuch as we value them. If you had said that I would have agreed completely with you, but that isn't what you originally said, only what I think you mean. I would be grateful if you could appl your thoughts a little more precisely. If I was wrong about what I think you meant, then by all means clarify though.

However, my argument is that money still is backed up in the traditional sense as well, unless the traditional sense is limited to a single good. Now our money is not backed up by a single good, but a multitude of goods. Sorta like when you owe the IRS tax money but you don't have enough to pay, so they seize your house, car, laptop, furniture, ect.

The IRS is against the law as there is no law, statute, code, or anything in any law, that states you have to pay taxes. They use an invisible contract (W-2, W-4, etc...) to get all your information that they need to take your 'taxes' out, and you agree with it by signing your name on it. Basically signing yourself away. Which is illegal, as its illegal to create a contract without disclosing the full terms of the agreement/contract to the party signing it (We are constitutionally protected against contracts and have the right to deny them in any way, shape, or form. And we are also constitutionally protected to create any type of contract we wish). Do they tell you that there is no law stating that you don't have to pay taxes? Do they tell you that its legal for you to sign exempt even 'if you can't because what it says on their paper says otherwise'?

If you believe otherwise, please show me where there is a Federal Law that states that every individual has to pay Income Taxes to the Federal Reserve Bank.

And what 'goods' are we backed up by Vrael? Do you realize we've OUTSOURCED pretty much everything America had to 'back itself' and now even our Automotive Industry is getting outsourced as well? How is that having 'goods' that are 'backed up'?

And please point out to me where it says we can break the constitution because a Central Bank wants us to? "No state shall emit bills of credit, or make anything except gold and silver tender of payment" is in the constitution and isn't it against the law to break the constitution???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_tax#U.S._constitutional_law_sense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution

EDIT: You may win on the "every individual" part, due to the graduated income tax's tax brackets and other provisions on what and who is taxed.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Feb 13 2009, 4:25 am by Mini Moose 2707.

I do not work for the Federal Government or a subsidiary thereof (Federal, State, Municipal, etc...) so I legally can deny the IRSs' Invisible Contract/s (W-2, W-4, etc...) due to my Constitutional Rights of contracting which state I have the constitutional right to deny any contract I've been presented. I also have the right to create any type of contract I wish. E.G. I could contract my best friend for giving him $5 and if he signed my contract (doesn't have to be 'notarized' as most people think) and broke my contract, I could take him for everything he owned and win in a court of law because I'm protected by my constitutional rights for contracting.

Which is why the IRS can do what it does to people (take their homes, cars, personal belongings, etc...) because the individuals break their Invisible Contract that we know as a W-2, W-4, etc.. because when they sign the IRS 'discovery paper' (I like to call their invisible contract a discovery paper because all a W-2/W-4 is, is a questionnaire for the IRS to find out your income so they can take it from you) you're agreeing to fork your money over to the IRS, and they 'calculate' how much they take from you based on the discovery paper you filled out for them, telling them all your information.

I checked through all those links and didn't find any place that it stated CITIZENS have to pay taxes, only Federal Workers, State Workers, Municipal Workers, etc... All branches of GOVERNMENT, not branches of THE PEOPLE.

So I suppose you're on the right track... Keep trying to find the law that states: "As a true, sovereign American Citizen I am lawfully binded to the IRS and The Federal Reserve"

There is no such right. The only mention of contracts in the entire constitution are both quoted above.

False. You could take him for the terms of the contract (plus damages).

Oddly enough, you're technically correct abot CITIZENS. However, the phrasing is precise:
So, if you are a CITIZEN and have an INCOME then you LEGALLY MUST PAY your TAXES. Notice the "from whatever source derived" part too, that's important. That means congress can choose what it wants to tax, as long as it's an income.

As a true American citizen you are bound to pay your taxes, by Amendment XVI. And, by Article 1 Section 8:
The IRS is legally established as necessary and proper for the collection of income taxes. Since you are bound to pay your taxes and the IRS is the established method by which we pay our taxes, then you are legally bound to pay that money to the IRS. Maybe you don't need to use the forms, there's nothing in there about filling out forms, but you do need to pay the money, regardless. Therefore, that is why "As a true, sovereign American Citizen I am lawfully binded to the IRS and The Federal Reserve"

False.

There is nothing being broken. Read the constitution, stupid. The phrase yo quoted incorrectly is in reference to the individual States, not the Federal government. This was to ensure a national currency with the exception of gold and silver which were taken to be valuable goods that had worked easily as currency in the past. There is nothing that says the federal government cannot print a paper money, and there IS a statement that says the federal government can coin money.

I have provided lists of goods multiple times already. For convenience, I shall provide another:
Man-hours, computers, vehicles, guns, houses, tables, chairs, water pitchers, ferris wheels, printers, pencils, bouncy balls, tennis shoes, tennis courts, television shows, televisions, golf clubs, backpacks, paper. Anything owned by a U.S. citizen. Hell, LAND. Anything of value.


On a related note, you have yet to address my arguments based on the reality of money.
Intentional Ad Hominem:
You are beginning to look like a fool. Stop blabbering and use your brain. Provide complete and accurate analyses of things, rather than single and unsupported assertions.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Feb 14 2009, 12:54 am by Vrael.

I'm beginning to look like a fool because I don't agree with the lies the government tricks people into (obviously you've fallen for them because of your replies) and the wool they've pulled over the whole world?? Cool, that's a nice attitude to have towards anyone that has a different opinion than you do.

You think American Citizens own land? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that's hilarious. Take a look at any state project where they come in and FORCE people to sell their land and 'pay' them for it and then come back and tell me that as Citizens, we 'own' land.

And you have still yet to show me where its lawful to break the articles of the Constitution that was set in place by our founding fathers. IRS and The Federal Reserve, do.

Kellimus, that is about the 5th time you've failed to counter the points he made SPECIFICALLY to each of your points that you were weakly standing on.

There really should be a suspension rule from serious discussion when all you say back is "nuh uh"

I wanted to believe that the system is evil and unlawful as anyone to psychologically make me feel better about my short comings in this country, but I won't delude myself to the point that I stop see the facts when pushed in front of my face. There's a chance that Vrael could still be wrong, but you are vastly under qualified to continue this discussion with him. Your personal case is a testament to your bias (your father should be ashamed for polluting you with all his hate he must have been venting to you about the government), and you haven't presented anything that wasn't in a Zeitgeist movie.

My father doesn't hate, he knows the truth about how Banks are all built on FRAUD (including our Centralized Bank AKA The Federal Reserve) and he's proven it now; twice. To two different judges, as well.

And what makes Vrael so 'qualified' in this discussion? Because he's taken an Economics class? Does he have a Doctorates in Economics? NO ONE is qualified on this forum to discuss anything half the time in any of the threads in Serious Discussion so what's your point?

Just because I don't reply to his now personal attacks doesn't mean I'm not bringing about good points.

Kellimus presents his point, Vrael gives his counter-point. Kellimus demands proof; Vrael provides proof, which Kellimus promptly ignores while re-stating his point over and over and over and over

At least, that's what I've seen so far; didn't want to slog through the entire pissing match.

Then, I suspend Kellimus for arguing strategies such as:

• Addresing 1 item out of a 22-item list where one standing disproves his point.
  
• Making incendiary statements such as "HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that's hilarious", which are superfluous, if not obnoxious.
  
• Statements about how nobody is qualified in SD half the time. While not saying anything about himself, which implies an uncalled for righteous attitude.
  
• Addressing the counterpost that broke his post apart into nine parts with a post that's mostly irrelevant filler and a blanket post that ignores (8 + (21/22)) of the items.
  
• Restatements ad naseum and generally being difficult without cause.

This, of course, makes me a terrible, biased, and elitist moderator and administrator.

Speaking of which, where are all of the other SD mods during this? (which is off-topic, don't answer it. )

Kellimus, consider this your formal warning before I stop ignoring the fact that you were never unbanned. If you played nice, I would be willing to let you stay. Unfortunately, this was never one of your defining characteristics. You are slipping back into your old habits and attitudes. Watch your step.

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on Feb 16 2009, 11:08 pm by Mini Moose 2707.