This coming up Wednesday I will be attending a bible study being held at my church titled "Clearing up the Confusion" It's purpose it to discuss the controversial parts of the bible and it's 'supposed' contradictions.

Now if any of you can remember every little thing I've said then you know I go to church almost every Sunday and that I live in a very evangelical family and community. I went to youth classes where they tell you it's already to ask questions about things you don't understand, and that it's better to argue about it then let your doubt fester inside. Long story short, I dared to question the existence of hell and how a God is has more love and compassion than anything else could send people to unimaginable, and unending, torture and agony. By my logic if I could have enough love and compassion for someone not to send them to hell, then God who has more love than me could do the same. I was ostracized and had to save face by telling them I was only talking hypothetically and playing devil's advocate.

Anyways last time I wasn't prepared and was a kind of spur of the moment thing that I just found some courage for. This time I want to go in fully loaded. I have until the 21st to amass a collection of every piece of ammo I can get my hands on. To give some specific info it is technically United Methodist, but ran like a non-denominational where we all wear casual attire.

How can you Help? I plan to focus most of my attack on contradictions, and have philosophical stuff like the existence of hell be supplemental, and try to leave out Christianity as a whole. So Inconsistencies > Philosophy > History. I still want at least a little bit of everything. You can help in 4 ways:
(First I want to say that as much as I do appreciate links, I'd rather have some of your own personal writting on a specific thing. I can google a list of links just fine, or hell you could simply point out what you think is the best parts in the link)

Inconsistencies - Find spots in the bible where it contradicts itself. I swear there was a great wikipedia page somewhere with every single contradiction laid out accompanied by a Christian response. I wish I could find it again. Some places to start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_consistency_of_the_Bible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Criticism

Philosophy - Stuff like Devilesk's signature concerning "The Problem with Evil". I definitely won't be leading with this because I want to at first appear to be just a curious believer.

History - The shameful things done in gods name. I may not even bring any of this stuff up unless they do first.

Apologetic Response - Here is where the many christians on SEN can still help me. Respond to criticisms so I can know what to expect. You might help me most of all.

All evidences will be listed and the \/below\/ post and act as a repository. This is the actual parchment I will be printing up and stuffing in my pocket.

[reserved]

Just ask something like "can god heat a burrito so hot that he cannot eat it?".
If they make some retarded claim like god can do both at the same time (or similar), ask how they would know that if they're only mortal, not immortal like god. Just say that man is mortal and thus has no right to have the word of god is usually enough to stump them.

Borrow video recorder of some kind and record the convo please

You're probably not going to change anyone's mind. Even if you did, I doubt they would have the courage to speak up, since bucking religion or spirituality after being exposed to it for years is a lengthy and committed process. People who are religious seem to work by different systems of logic altogether. If I were you, I would try to make the case that you have profound disagreements with them, and that having such disagreements does not make you somehow worse than they are.

I had a conversation with this girl a few days ago. We occasionally talk spirituality, but I'd managed to disagree with her in most cases without actually saying I'm an atheist. She was talking about these debates she saw on Youtube between Christians and Atheists. She said she found them exciting because it was like watching "God vs. the Devil." Sigh... That's when I revealed my true thoughts, and tried to make it clear that the debate was between people who were members of a club and people who were not. Being hastily judged as evil is a misconception you will have to be prepared to deal with if you become an outspoken atheist or agnostic. She still wants to hang out with me, so I guess that means she doesn't think I'm too evil.

Depending on how far you go, you should also be prepared to deal with the social ramifications of upsetting church members.

Didn't you know Doodan? Religion is a tool to enslave the weak-willed/weak-minded by threatening their existence after this mortal body.

"They float down here, and you'll float too!"

It's funny, whenever I make a statement about my religious beliefs (atheist), people just cock their head at me for a second, maybe probe a question or two, and move on with their lives. Even when I strike down something the church has said...

Maybe they can respect others' beliefs and that's why they do it?

Are you going because you personally want this confusion/controversy for particulars part in the Bible cleared up and that you want to know how this particular Church sees them? Or are you going with your mind already made up and only with the intent of attacking the ideas, controversies, and confusion in the Bible without listening to what the people have to say?

Judging from the responses the SENer's are making it seems as though they think you are doing the latter and if this is really true, then you are simply wasting your time. If you really want to get people to see why your opinions are more right than theirs then you have to go in with an open mind. Getting "loaded up with ammo" isn't going in with an open mind, and you'll simply put yourself at the same level as those fundamentalists which most nobody likes.

Normally these kind of Bible studies will already have such known/notorious passages already in their line-up especially if they're going to cover the controversial parts of the Bible, so they probably already have the ammo loaded for you

It's funny, people are always saying how flawed the bible is, but when you take translation errors and the time that it was written into account, it's a lot more perfect than most books.

Read David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion.
Or
read something by Nietzsche

Quote

Just ask something like "can god heat a burrito so hot that he cannot eat it?".
If they make some retarded claim like god can do both at the same time (or similar), ask how they would know that if they're only mortal, not immortal like god. Just say that man is mortal and thus has no right to have the word of god is usually enough to stump them.

The burrito thing?Why would God do something so stupid...
And it's God's Word not ours, so He can do with it what He wants.Including give it to unworthy mortals.Except it's only our bodies that are mortal.So we are sort of immortal.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 19 2009, 7:07 am by zany_001.

Sorry Zany, but when I see CCC (Crazy Christian Capitalization) I have to tune you out.

But I'm just showing respect to God, most Christians do.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 19 2009, 7:07 am by zany_001.

If god is going to damn me to hell for not capitalizing his name, I'll go willingly and he will not be my god.

On a further note, I've found that devout believers take you a lot more seriously if you don't claim to know any more than they do, and simply argue from that perspective. For example, saying you're an atheist means you believe that there's no god. Although there's evidence to support that, there's also evidence to support the existence of a god, and so there's no middle ground step to be taken readily. By calling myself an agnostic or a humanist (which will probably both lead to lengthy explanations, devout believers in a religion generally tend to have very little knowledge of other beliefs), I open the door of uncertainty. The fact that many Christians consider "atheist" little better, or worse, than a curse word also will leave you at a disadvantage by declaring yourself as such.

My goal in any argument is not to convince my opponent(s), that never happens. My goal is simply to spur natural human curiosity and plant the seed of doubt. Only then will the person seek and naturally obtain whatever belief they find most fitting AFTER looking at more than their single option that many are all but forced into. Maybe some will do said research and maintain that their faith in the Bible is well-placed. Others may be "converted," and you may never hear about it, but it is the effort is worthwhile. Anyone legitimately attending a Bible study on its controversies is naturally at least somewhat of a doubter. You simply need to affirm that their questions are valid and they are not the only one who has had such thoughts.


In short, it's pointless to attempt to convince someone of something they do not believe from the start. Your goal against such an overwhelmingly disagreeable audience (especially if you expect to be invited back) should be merely to raise the doubt in people that religion naturally leaves- due to its reliance on faith.

I wouldn't. IF he really existed, I'd take that back.

Yeah, devout believers are zealots, not people who actually want to learn stuff. I actually dislike them highly. Even though I am a Christian myself.

Who said God was a He? It isn't a He or She. God is God. He and She is meant for only humans- and especially made only for societal purposes and sexual action XXX involved.

Why are you here anyways? You're wasting your time.

You know why most bible studies never cover Revelations? Because even if you read it, you most likely wouldn't know what it is talking about. It'd take a huge amount of imagination.

Faith and Trust is really all we rely on from having your neighbor turn into a monster with a 60mm automated gun that will rip your body apart.

I do enjoy linking this
The odds of someone doing that are equally inconsiderably low as all the other potential absurd "what ifs" - which, if taken seriously, would render literally every action, including idility, "dangerous"; therefore, the rationale is flawed from the start.

Actually my neighbor has shot a BB at my house so perhaps in this one instance I really do have to have faith that he won't do so again. =p

Nice link though EzDay, that's a rather elegant and obvious counter that I've never considered.

Did it happen he shot it at a sliding glass door?

Anyways, I don't think you should take such a militant stance towards theism. I enjoy arguing, but not outside of places or occurrences where others invoke such arguments.

Where is the evidence for a person though? You know there is a saying that you can never truly know another.