I was googling "temple siege" and came upon this (yes I was very bored). Before mentioning that he has uploaded several Korean AoS types of maps using "Temple Siege" as its tag, and that he's probably a tad jealous, I just want to share this question that has sprouted from this comment. Why are some mappers and ums map players not seeing the fact that simpleness is a big factor on the gameplay itself?

Let's skip talking about bounds, cause I hate them, and people will hate me for talking about how I hate them (they are repetitive and takes away a great mapper's time and talent away from mapping by making impossible obstacles that would only be beaten by the obsessed, rather than making a new map that will be liked by pubbies and junkies.) (oops i just said it)... It is rare to see people come up with really good, simple, fun maps nowadays. What happened to the revolutionary Cat and Mouse, Blood pressure marathon, and Random Unit Wars/battle/fighters?? They are GODLY compared to many overworked maps. Yes, they may be a stroke of genius that not all mappers will have, but why spend time in making Crazy attacking spells, crazy repetitive triggering that only helps the player a bit (like how in heros of synergy, metalgear made triggers to tell the player everytime he tries to fire a spell that's currently in a cooldown the EXACT Second till the cooldown is over.. that's madness!) Seriously, drop the perfectionalism and go for the fun, because, in the end, it's just a game (and more embarrassingly, a game WITHIN a game.)

Now, since I have a habbit of contradicting myself, and throwing everyone into the grey zone, I absolutely adore terraining and the crazy spells in We Are Friends or Naruto: Mark of the Shinobi for example. But we all know they are as imbalanced as my Temple Siege. Same goes for whatever korean game Zhuinden's talking about, because I doubt it is more balanced than TS, and if it is, just wait till v1.5 >:C.

But the main point is, WAFfles and Naruto MOS are fun (to an extent) to just bring out the big spell combo crazy effects on n00bs and make them your bitch. This led me to think "Why, then, do people like games like TS?".. Emergent gameplay, as CAFG indirectly explained to me. My map has more lee-ways and strategy-holes than the law . Well Darn, I've never played those korean Dota/AoS games, but I'm sure there's a lot of emergent gameplay there too. Why don't ppl play those then? I've seen sm ppl play Type-Moon arena, I've tried it, and I was confused. That's the bombshell. Zhuinden, no matter how bad my game looks, Korean games are way too noob-unfriendly for anyone to pick up unless you treat the game as a religion. Similarly, I turned to DOTA on W3. It is SHOCKINGLY similar to my map (with day/night cycles and 4 spells each hero) (I seriously didn't know). But the one thing that I find in common with my map too, is that it is VERY EASY to pick up, but the depth of that game is so deep that you [Zhuinden] can't even begin to fathom. I'm sure the korean maps are great, with all the pretty lights n explosions, but Dota didn't need those (Go Meat Hook! or that.. weird Miranda laser ball thingy i dunno), and neither did TS (and >1000 posts can't be wrong <3).

So, I ended up simply venting my anger in this thread, but the discussion really holds on to Why are there still Maps being made that aren't easy to pick up, and are sooooo complex and crazy that I couldn't even imagine how much time the mapper spent on it. Like.. it's just for fun. O.o... Seriously. Yea, it's cool to make impressive maps, but what it winds down to is.. no one's gonna pay you for ur map's impressiveness, and no one's gonna play it either because of it's noob-unfriendliness. So, your map then goes completely to waste. This strikes me as very odd, since isn't map making's sole purpose to have others play it and have fun? I just don't understand. Maybe you guys can tell me more =O!

The topic title seems kinda off, but w/e.

My personal philosophy is to make things in the map that appeal to people of all skill levels. So, in my AoS map, I'm trying to add heroes (eg. Fenix) that are easy to use, and then others (eg. Grey Templar, Brood Warrior, etc.) that take more skill to use properly but are stronger if used the right way.

As for maps being boring to make, I tend to create my repetitive triggers with a program called Inform 7. It was intended for writing interactive fiction games and has nothing to do with mapping, but it's useful 'cause you can easily set it up to make a bunch of triggers at once. Unless you overload the text buffer and break it, but that's still easy to work around.

Simplicity and balance go a long way towards popularity and competitiveness.

The most popular UMS in StarCraft over its history is easily Snipers, there have been literally more than a hundred clans devoted only to Sniper maps, and it's been around for some 7 or 8 years. And yet, I can create it from scratch in an hour. While the same isn't true with Temple Siege, it maintains an appearance of simplicity. I personally feel that this could be approved upon even more so. Get rid of the spare buildings after a player selects his class, actually include some help in the briefing (some people do occasionally read it, and at the very least you could point to the in-game tutorial for newbs).

AoS maps are above all competitive. There's a large number of players on Battle.net that enjoy bashing mindless computers and playing games where whoever knows the most about the map wins, but that's a completely different audience than the one that AoS maps appeal to. It's my personal belief that if you, the mapper, are the best player of the map, your map is not a good one.

Someone once told me that if you are having fun making your map, then it is worth making it. As long as you are having fun. There are different types of people on Battle Net, some like bounds, others hate it. Same goes with every other map. Now you know that some people love your map, and others hate it. All that matters is that you had fun.

Also, couldn't someone make a cool/unique/original bound that's not repetitive? eg. There was one idea I had a while ago where you control a Dark Archon and Scourges fly in from the sides of the screen. If a Scourge hits you, you die/lose a life. You can't move your DA normally (with the Move command) but you can Mind Control a Scourge to make your DA start moving at it.

Or another one where there are a few players, who all have DAs. Each DA moves in a fixed direction, and you can't directly give your DA move orders. Cast Feedback on an ally to make them turn 90 degrees. There are two teams, each in their own arena. Scourges fly into each arena randomly. And DA that touches a Scourge goes bye-bye. The first team that gets down to one DA loses.

Wrong. You know that AoS is exactly that?

That's only true at low levels of play. You never expect a completely new player to beat an expert at any game until they understand its basic functions. While knowledge of the game is important to a certain point, in most AoS games everyone already knows the basic strategies and it becomes about precise timing and unit control. Once you've reached the point where you know the spells and combos from each unit, the game loses that aspect and becomes much more strategic.

Look at melee for example. A smarter and faster player will usually come out the victor if both understand the game equally, but if the smarter and faster player doesn't know what dark swarm does, or doesn't know that siege tanks outrange his lurkers, he can't possibly be expected to win. Once you've overcome the simple learning curve though, you hit the metagame and the game takes on a new perspective, as is the case with both melee and Temple Siege.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 10 2008, 3:37 pm by Doodan. Reason: Removed flame

You completely missed my point. You said players like games like AoS as compared to teaming up against a computer. I was merely pointing out that AoS was completely against the computer with no PvP. I'm surprised you don't know this but use the AoS term so freely.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 10 2008, 3:37 pm by Doodan. Reason: removing flame quote

I used "AoS" a genre in the previous post. The original may have only been PvE but the first version of Aeon of Strife that I played and the one that became popular (and has spawned all these subsequent similar games, like DotA) allowed players to split themselves into two teams. I'm not sure which version came first, but it really doesn't matter for the point of my post.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Dec 10 2008, 3:38 pm by Doodan. Reason: removing flame

Hey guys. Sorry about this thread I was really venting my anger..
And VERY NICE Wiki, drunkennoodle.. i learned a lot...

and What BluEditor Said is probably true.. that people have fun while making the map =O... I guess I didn't see that because I usually think of mapping as a way of relieving my creativity, but the course of making the map, for me, is a chore. It is only when it is done, and I play it, then it is fun ..

n yeah CAFG n Faz- don't like each other... but in the midst of their arguments, I learned the exact meaning of "troll" and it's history too LOL! (omg ima go wiki "lol" now)

No. you said AoS maps. I wouldn't have said anything if you said AoS type maps. AoS is a map, its genre is assault.That 'less popular version' is called AoS Battlefield V2 by Guner4ever. It spawned AoS III, which was PvE and sucked, and AoS 2(yours) made by Panzer. While I don't pretend to know everyone's b.net experience, I can say with some certainty that Battlefield was far more popular than the others. I personally liked AoS 2, but it had little success. My point wasn't to argue with your idea that PvP assault types are better than PvE. I just wanted to correct you in that your example was actually what you were arguing against; a PvE(which you took offense to)

I hope this is the last fight you pick with me.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 10 2008, 3:39 pm by Doodan. Reason: yet another troll reference

This is your fight picked, irregardless of how you'd like to pin it on me for defending myself. Simply look at the title of this thread and you'll realize how foolish your attempt at making me out to be wrong is. It's very evident you posted for no reason except to attempt to make me look bad, and in doing so completely missed the point of this thread and the entirety of Unholy's and my posts, which are discussing the AoS genre of maps, not the map or maps called AoS.

AoS is a genre as well, and that would have been your interpretation if you had done more than read my post and attempt to counter it in any way possible because you disagree with my views on Temple Siege, which this is no doubt about. Noodle, him posting in this thread specifically to antagonize me fits about as perfectly with the definition given as you can get: "posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."

As best I can tell, Faz started the fight by accusing CAFG of being a troll. He will be fined for that. It can also be taken that the topic's author is basing his discussion around AoS-style maps, rather than the map itself. Any further fighting about this subject will be met with heavy fines and possibly further action.

Back on topic, please.

Woah, I haven't actually noticed up until now that you typed up an abnormally huge amount of stuff regarding my comment about how I prefer explosions and S+S C+O A+S+C+O skills over the good old 4-skill system where a spell creates a unit that does something (okay, Mutant is an exception I think). Yes, it is true that there are a lot of maps that are simple by concept, yet are rather fun. Although most Cat and Mice tend to be rigged, there were quite a few that were really great, especially Fireworld5 (rigged for both sides, though the Tank is over-rigged for mice), Blood Pressure Marathon was a korean map originally and it also was rather unfriendly (5 laps, crystal - a worker must bring you to the end, G G spawn in the middle which is absolute death, devourer that must be killed so you can go through etc) but it really is a simple concept.


American maps tend to be based more on the terrain than the actual look and gameplay. It is true, Temple Siege truly has a great terrain. However, the concept itself might be simple, but I truly don't understand what the big deal is. It's not like Temple Siege is so damn friendly. What I truly don't like about Temple Siege, is the upper system - buying Max HP, buying upgrades (!), buying skill levels (with 3 civs), independently upgrade your mana, buying spawn levels (5 / team). It's a system that I will never like, and I don't even think it is so darn friendly. It's bothersome pain to get civilians, and you have to use THREE? Oh come on. How will I upgrade and not die if I need some mana and a new skill because my first skill is running away and I'm a DT that can hardly kill anything? Seriously, wtf. Getting Exp is the worst aspect, though it has been for a really really long time even in the original DotX for SC.

I disagree with korean maps/AoS games being noob-unfriendly. Usually people are just too stupid to use their common sense for each game. Probe in korean games is almost always Potion, Stargate is for skills, on most occasions there is a skill guide (either in 1+2 2+4 4+4 form or SO OA AA form) in the mission objectives or somewhere else. If they can't use that, that is their very own fault. Though I agree there are a few maps where there is no skill guide (cough cough Type-Moon Arena cough cough) and some characters are way rigged compared to others (TMA's Rider (Inf Kerrigan) vs Arculeid Blunstud (normal Zergling) - almost the same skills, except for Zergling everything is cheaper, and is a lot more powerful), but most of the time, the true difference between the USA-AOS Style and the Korea-AOS Style is that in the USA, you have to use each skill once in 4 minutes, and it takes a hella long time to get the mana up, and in the Korean, you have to use combo skills in order to kill the original normal creep monsters (O S+S bitches), and those S+S and O skills look good! This is the true difference.

Though this is the except same thing that I had mentioned before. But I still like massing skills and gaining extra mana by levelling up more than setting my HARDLY-GAINED statpoints around to upgrade, and getting each upgrade is harder than pretty much anything else. Maybe I'm the only one who prefers the mass-skill style over the other, I'll stick to this one and that won't likely change.

Btw: Type-Moon Arena is kinda rigged, especially the normal zergling. C+C pwnz almost everything, especially after an O. If you wanna heal, just use an A. Although you have to survive, and you have to be at a high level to use C+C anyways.

As a person who doesn't play this type of map often, I didn't know that probe is potion, or stargate is for skills. And I have no idea what your 'skill guides' (the part you put in brackets) mean. Is it my fault if I haven't been introduced to a concept and have no way of knowing how to use it?

Can you please explain what you mean by "C+C", "O", "A", etc?

And Temple Siege's upgrades are fine, although I wish UUrine would use something that I can hotkey instead of the civs... And how would your skill "run away"?

DTs can kill stuff, btw... DT at night = pwnage, especially if your opponents don't have Dark Mage/Mutant/Special Ops. Upgrade your normal attacks and he's fine, even during the day. I tend to put my starting civ to Gain Money to get some minerals for quick weapon upgrades. (Armor upgrades are good too, of course.)

But the spawns just run through and you can hardly gain any exp!

Neways. the SOCA system in MY opinion is self-explanatory, but I guess I'll tell you how it works. Most korean games use Stargate as a skill-creator building (exceptions are possible - We Are Friend's barracks but that uses the 123 skill guide). The S C A O are the hotkeys for each unit. So when a skill says it's A+O or AO then it means create an Arbiter then a cOrsair (fast).

The 1 2 3 4 -> 1+4 3+2 skill system is just as easy as the other one, although it needs a slight amount of thinking. Especially if there is fast healing so the corsair / medic is healing. There are two ways of determining which one is which - either look at the mana requirement (obviously the lowest is 1, the second lowest is 2, etc.) or it usually mentions the skill's numbers according to the guide when you use it (example: 3+3> KoreanJibberish) so you can guess how it works like that as well.

It's simple. However, don't ask what the Reaver does in Type-Moon Arena, because no one knows. It could be a mana healer item, but I never really knew which one it might be. So there are a few mysteries of life (for example the items' effects in War of Emperium) but most of the stuff is easy to guess using trial and error. S+S is a common skill, although not every char has it in the korean AoS games.

Tbh I think the most Korean AoS suck because of the language. ALOT of the features are not used from lack of knowing how they are activated or their effects. I guess it's my fault right? Being a non-korean speaker and all vv.


Wait. This doesn't mean you ONLY played as the Dt right?

I can't speak korean either, and I tried out Assault but I wasn't as rigged as that other guy who got Armor 30 out of nowhere and raped the base, and Mech was kinda bad because it got raped by a Mutant, even changing around the forms I just couldn't inflict enough dmg. But I was DT mostly.

... You're supposed to use tactics and teamwork, not just try to attack everyone... Like with Mech you should have used his Siege Tanks to blast the Mutant from a distance. As for the 30 armor, he probably put everything into Obtain Money and put his minerals to armor.

Btw, you need to use DTs Escape spell A LOT. My rule of thumb is if you are at less than 120 HP, Escape. But I think it has a charging time, so you might want to cast at 150 HP just to be on the safe side. And make sure to upgrade armor a lot...