@Intra: your point about varying IQ's is baseless. Most of the things you are saying don't seem to follow any type of logic pattern at all.

Listen, it looks like you're just trolling here, and let it be known I'm aware that you might be doing that, as of right now.

Yes, I'm not saying all illegal immigrants are stupid. Some are quite intelligent. The vast majority are not however. Descendants of legal immigrants are far more
likely to have higher skilled jobs.

Examine the earlier posts and the posts I was responding to. Someone mentioned that stupidity is genetic, and he didn't like stupid people. He also implied that he supported illegal immigration.

I merely stated the fact the illegal immigrants tend to have low IQ and are thus 'stupid.' My "logical pattern" is the reasoning that
he can't be pro-illegal immigrants because illegal immigrants aren't very smart.

As for baseless, how am I wrong? It's a proven fact that illegal immigrants don't score very high in intelligence tests (administered in their own language). Are you
going to argue that illegal immigrants on average are smarter than legal immigrants or legal residents?

And no I am not trolling. In fact, if you want, I will explain every single one of my statements that I've posted in this topic so far just to prove it.
Every one of my posts has an actual 'point' in it- whether it's an analogy, comparison, example, etc

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 30 2008, 1:12 am by Intranetusa.

All you do in the first sentence is make an assumption about clokr_'s post, and then the rest of it doesn't even make sense, it's irrelevant and doesn't logically follow. You're being extremely fallacious all over the place just like this. The strawman and circular logic is painful to watch.


Just because you're making a point doesn't mean you're not trolling. You're going off on all kinds of irrelevant tangents seemingly just to start more arguments. (if you're doing this on purpose) That's trolling. If you want to discuss this any further than take it to PM. Otherwise, just start making better posts.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 30 2008, 1:42 am by Dapperdan.

Intra, do you honestly believe that taking an IQ test in a language you're unfamiliar with actually measures your intelligence? Intelligence is genetic. Education is not. IQ tests do not measure intelligence, they measure retained education.

He was saying immigrants from Eastern Europe are bad because they're violent criminals whereas immigrants from other parts aren't because they're not violent.

This is what he said:

I was saying that violent illegal immigrants can come from any nation, not just Eastern Europe.

A strawman's arguement is an argument that misrepresents the other person's viewpoint. And since Clokr specifically said "african inmigrants don't cause much problems, east inmigrants are usually worse because they use violence to steal people and such.", I believe I did correctly respond to the viewpoint he had.


Yes, I'll pm you in private and discuss how my posts aren't irrelevant spam that creates arguments.

IQ tests asks you to compare shapes, sizes, colors and relationship between objects or words. You don't need any sort of education for that.

It's intelligence quotient, so it's the score in relation to the person's age. It's not the SATs or ACTs - you don't need even need a middle school education to
take it. That's why even little kids can take it, and why it can be given to people of any language or culture.

That's not what he said at all. Reread his quote.




No you didn't. He said usually, and much, and then you completely change what he says later: "So you're saying all the crime comes from Eastern Europe and none from Africa? Oh really?" and continue on a tangent based off that being the point he made. When really it wasn't. Ask clokr.

Then my semantics was erroneous. I'll admit that I was incorrect in using the word 'all' instead of the word 'most' in my reply.

Nonetheless, the topic was about illegal immigration and not legal immigration. I would still challenge the statement's validity since I'm arguing illegal African immigrants are just as bad as illegal Eastern European immigrants or illegal immigrants from anywhere else.

You clearly have never taken a REAL IQ test. They test things that, as a society, we are taught to recognise. When I got my IQ tested there was long division and reading comprehension on the test. It tests intelligence as related to the person's educational age, not chronological age.

I applaud you on your flawless argument Syphon. IQ tests don't measure intelligence, therefore intelligence must be genetic.

There are different types of questions for different IQ tests. It's not hard to change or remove problems dealing with mathematics or language skills. For that aspect,
I'll agree with you in that they'll need at least a rudimentary education to take some portions of the test.
wiki
It is chronological age actually. IQ is calculated as a ratio with the formula:
That's why scores for young children and the elderly are often skewered. So now there is a slightly altered version of the IQ test
to address that among other factors:
wiki

There is no way to accurately measure intelligence. But exceptional intelligence is generally genetic. (It IS genetic.)
Also, illegal immigrants generally cannot even speak the said language of the illegally immigrating country. You believe they can actually read what the said language?

Perhaps they can. Many places around the world have centers where they teach people other languages for the purposes of diplomatical and immigration purposes. So an illegal immigrant learns English, comes to North America and fits in. Is it really that hard?

You wouldn't agree if you had an encounter with one of them. There's a difference between illegally comming to a country because you're starving in yours and coming because you want to steal enough stuff to become rich. Even immigrants from other countries like Colombia are more dangerous than African ones.

It's also a way to adquire low-cost workers which we actually need to compete with China. It's not really ethical but it's a valid solution.

On a side note, if illegal immigrants have such a low IQ, all you gotta do is study and no illegal immigrants will steal any of your possible jobs.


They're not going to learn the language if they're going to try to get illegaly into a country... When they arrive (if they do) they don't know the language, the culture, they have nothing and they cannot leave the country because they wouldn't be able to get in again.

I'm not trying to defend them, all I want to prove is that crime DOES NOT COME from illegal immigration. There are some points which have to be addressed before getting to the immigration policy if they want crime to dissapear.

Or just keep tuition costs dangling out of their reach.

So immigrants from African immigrants come because they want to work whereas others come because they want to steal? I guess you've never heard of the "Nigerian prince money scam" then. There are plenty of drug traffickers, criminals, gangsters legally and illegally coming from African nations as well...just as many as any other nation.


Not really. PRC-China is a low tech manufacturing nature centered on low skill manual labor. The US is becoming a technological nation centered
on high skill technical labor. We don't need any 'low cost' workers that have illegally immigrated here, because we already have plenty of legal
workers willing to work for the same jobs.

I'm referring to manual labor jobs, not technical jobs that require skill. Illegal immigrants are replacing legal workers in manual labor
such as factory workers, processing plants, farm workers...all because employers can pay them at the quarter of the wage they'd have to pay legal workers.

Illegal immigration is itself a crime. You break the law when you cross into a nation illegally without proper documents or passports. Just like transpassing onto someone's property or breaking & entering.

And remember that crime/intelligence/IQ/immigrants topic we discussed earlier?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 30 2008, 4:17 pm by Intranetusa.

My reasoning is why should we provide governmental benefits for illegal immigrants when even many of our citizens & legal immigrants often don't have the same benefits?
And illegal immigrants don't pay their allocated taxes either, so they're not even funding the educational system. Also, they tend to send
much of their money back to their native country, reducing the money supply in this nation.

We're talking about Europe still right?

lol, I was actually talking about the US for that statement. I think we've strafed from the Europe topic after we started getting into the illegal immigration issue.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 1 2008, 8:57 pm by Dapperdan.

My argument was not this at all. I applaud you on your continuing failure at reading comprehension.