Hey All,

I think moose is too busy working on SEN, which we need anyways to make UMS great again, and by proxy SEN great again. So I extend my offer here, I am willing to pay money to update Temple Siege G3F to the modern era as G3f is terrible, has bugs, and IAGG's version is widely criticized.

The first phase I just want to make some quality of life changes. The second phase will tweak some more like actual hero spells. I have a vision I want to carry out for the map, especially since I am an avid player and have core interests in balance and fun factor. I really want a perfected TS map. and of course I want SEN's name on it to help the TS community but to also bring more talent, bodies, and interest into SEN itself.

Again there is money involved, I am willing to pay. And its negotiable. Send me a message, anyone willing to do the task. Thank you for your time and interest, Have a great day.

Brofla.

I may be interested in contributing a little bit. What kind of quality of life changes are you talking about?

I also wouldn't want payment.

When TS first started to become popular and SENners started getting attached to it (Moose, CAFGs, ect.) it brought with it its players. Do you know where the majority of the people it brought here are now? The Void.

If you're interested in improving TS, good. Have at it. I wish you luck. Mapping is the core of SEN and I encourage anyone and everyone to spend more time in SCMDraft even if nothing comes of it. But do not for one second ever imply that TS or SEN's association with it will ever be a positive for this site. We've got a mountain of moderation logs and plenty of banned accounts that prove otherwise.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 15 2017, 10:33 pm by Excalibur.

Basics:

-Remove all of IAGG's stupid name plastered everywhere.
-Can't have more than one of the same hero on a team. Really stupid idea.
-Remove mist, bugged, unplayable, unpopular.
-No more intro. Just make the default Blind Pick, and jump into hero select. The intro just unecessarily long.
-Ready up timer after picking: like 15 seconds to hotkey, spend civs, hotkey upgrades. Picking phase can come down to the last second.

These are off the top of my head.

Btw thank you for the reply. Much appreciated.


Thank you for the blessings of luck. All you had to say however was you hate Temple Siege. To each his own.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 15 2017, 12:47 pm by NudeRaider. Reason: cleaning up

Lmao, who cares about whatever community a UMS map brings us in contact with.

I'd be willing to contribute to a remastered version.

Additionally, personally I would like to make a single-player tutorial / basic training version, so people can try out all the different heroes care-free and learn some of the different facets of playing the game without having to deal with players getting angry their teammates don't know everything about the map.

Zoan, you had me at your cowboy bebop avatar <333, best anime ever. I have some of the soundtrack on my IPhone. I like Anime, but Bebop is not only visual experience its also an audio one.

Thanks for the reply btw, what can you do to help? A lot of you guys seem really talented so the base level stuff like Hero removal, stat changes, QOL stuff, seem like minor lifts for you guys.

Here are the QOL changes I am proposing. Just to make the map at a standard.
1)http://i.imgur.com/KzfXMPL.png 2)http://i.imgur.com/gnoUqOV.png

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 14 2017, 5:24 pm by Broflamingo.

TBH a lot of these changes seem like they would be simple to implement. e.g. changing upgrade costs from gas to minerals and changing hero HP would take literally 1 minute.

As for the other stuff, there's no way we can tell how difficult it is to implement without seeing the code beforehand. Since the changes you want to make aren't radical gameplay changes however, I don't think they would be too difficult.

Are you interested in ideas we have to add, btw?

If so, I was thinking: In DOTA the way they choose their hero units is pretty intricate, and something similar could be introduced to TS. For example, we could have it so one team picks 1 hero, the other team picks 2 heroes, the first team then picks 2 and the second team picks their third (This could be in place of the stupid - "Vision enabled while select heroes" setting).

We could also have a setting where each hero can only appear on the map once - i.e. if the Top team has a hero, the Bottom team cannot have that hero as well.

Seems like a dick move to remove IAGG's name from everywhere when he did actually do a lot of work to improve the map. Also, you should be getting permission from UU if you want to be editing his map.

I like that idea. Vision enabled while choosing was always dumb. If you can implement staggered picks that would be great.

You also read my mind, I am not a fan of mirror matches either, but i think that would have to be up to the community. Some people like them. However double/triple of the same heroes on the same team has to go. Was always stupid.

There are also more complex changes like changing heroes spells and things but I cannot get hold of M8 and moose only knows how to crack G3f. Some of these heroes are poorly thought out or just bad. But it would take a good effort to do these and i know you guys are busy.

Also that god awful intro needs to go. And the code needs to be optimized, because the map is laggy as hell.

EDIT:

I got permission thanks. I talk to him (UU) all the time, he also likes my TS Channel. Do you have anything productive to add?

Edit: Nobody was gonna remove his name entirely. He has some good hero concepts, but the map is laggy, unresponsive, and it was widely panned by most of the community. The map doesn't have the best quality. I don't understand what is seemingly "dickish" about anything.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 15 2017, 1:06 pm by NudeRaider. Reason: please edit instead of reposting

Remove all names from map. Case solved. Bunch of normies.

Wow this thread got pruned..

Would you be able to post a link to the map? I haven't played it before but wouldn't mind helping if it was up my ally.

Much more detailed list on what needs to be done.




QoL Changes: Phase 1

-Streamline intro. No need to choose. Blind pick the default mode (nobody seems to miss or remember when you can see what people picked). 30 second timer.
*I liked Zoans idea, of staggered picks if that could be implemented. Was a very good idea if you want to incorporate vision back in.

-Remove Mist. Buggy, unplayable, and unfun.

-So many wasted strings.

-Add custom .wav files for better player feedback/immersion and uniqueness to map. Like on kills, or capturing an outpost. Recapturing an outpost. Helps the immersion. Kotk RPG uses these to great effect despite the language barrier.

-Bring The tutorial back. Should be quick, streamlined, and easy.

-No more double or triple heroes on the same team. Just a single copy of the hero on the team. Especially with the prevalence of random just leads to terrible, un-fun un-balanced matches.

-Revert character upgrades back to minerals: Vulture speed, Vessel NRG, Companion upgrades, ling attack, ling speed, and make siege mode researchable for general. This was a huge blunder and unneeded.

-Maybe remove mirror matches? Most people seem to dislike them. To be fair, I could understand them with the original hero pool, but now we have plenty of heroes.

-Ready up timer after picking for hotkeying etc. Sometimes the picking phase takes a long time and discussion among team members.

-Final Spawn (5th Tier), Hydras (Archer Companions) are pretty lackluster as a final spawn. I propose changing them to goliaths (Golems) with some stat changes. Or maybe there is a way to boost 5th tier spawn while keeping hydras intact.

-Assim times/incomes are so wonky. I've built over 8 sometimes i still only get 1 cycle. Not sure what to make of this. My personal Observation is that the guy building them gets some type of handicap, not sure why (G3F).

**My personal idea: I think money should scale the more you invest in it. I always felt it was weird that money didn't scale especially because sometimes you need it late game. Maybe every 4 time you invest it increases, I figured: 35->40->50->75. As far as game balance goes, this could be good because some teams are much better map controllers than others (Assims and stuff). This could even the playing field for defensive team makeups to give them a chance. On top of this it should somewhat similar to mana, where, when you reach the end final tier, you get a big bonus. My theory: it should unlock a 1time buying of an extra life.


(Phase 2: Hero Changes)
Hero changes:

SpecOps:
Consolidate him, no more classic. Just merge.
-L1:Maybe bring back mine cap?
-L2:Satellite Drone: 2 drones max, 75 Starting NRG, needs vessel upgrade I’d propose 75 minerals for vessel upgrade. No more SCV, never really fit the hero.
-L3:Sniper stays the same.
-L4:No Duration Extension, OP and Cheesy. Just make the mines invincible again.

Assault:
-Make the Stuns affect ally pet spawns increasing the skill, should probably stun your allies to like in the old versions.
-Remove Berserker bomb. Bring back Nuke. 120mana for ghost 100mana for nuke. 1:30 Build time. Way more detection this time around.

Summoner:
-Make L2 infested Terrans again.
-Keep L4 with 4 Ultra Cap, This was a good change. However remove the takes 2 spawn destroying skills on them. Too powerful.
-Remove auto upgrades from upping spell level.
-Dark Swarm 120, Plague 100.
-Ling upgrades minerals again.
-He has a full heal @ L3, drop his HP to from 3800 to 3000-3200.

Assassin:
-Add a slight delay to L1, with visual effect, increasing skillcap. Everything else is fine.
-L2 Bug: Sometimes removes spawn and not neutralize them. Buggy code, i’ve only seen this in G3f so w/e.

Mech:
-Remove Siege mode for L3. Instead give tank mode 15 base armor. Or compromise, make it researchable.

Medic:
Consolidation.
*You can choose between classic medic or new medic. Which seems superficial. Just stick with classic meaning:
-L1 perma spawns a medic that heals you and allies. No more global spawn. Or maybe double casting the spell can create global effect.

General:
*This is a good hero and should be kept out of respect for IAGG. Though G3f Has many problems IAGG made a decent hero, and personally one of my favorites. He needs some tweaks for sure though.
-Make Siege Mode a natural ability, or researchable. Just seems to fit the hero.
-L1 Should be able to build bunkers filled with units: I’d say 2 Marines, 2 Firebats. 75 or 100 mana. IMO should scrap the mines, but the mines seem popular. Or maybe give him ability to make armored assims for 150. The bunkers would increase options and reinforce his role as a defensive hero and give him more to do.
-L2 is wonky, and inconsistent, while its a good spell. It needs more stability so its no costantly in the player's way when moving. This can be horrible when playing in tough situations.
-L3 needs a better spell, uninspiring, not that useful, just a hold over till his L4 which is actually pretty good and well liked.
-L4 Good spell, everyone likes, could be optimized a little.

Alchemist:
*Good hero, and should remain. Pays homage to CAFG as he thought it up, and as respect should kept.
-L4: Good spell, but could be simplified or explained better. Meaning give it three definitve abilities to choose from. It has a huge list of abilities that are vague.

Magician:
*Needs a rework bad. L2+L3 are terrible. Propose he and phantom (from TS 1.6) be merged.
-L1: Give him phantoms L1 when nobody is nearby, because mag L1 literally does nothing when no enemy is near him. This is terrible design, and terrible player feedback. But with an enemy nearby give him the swap ability, or make it a double cast.
-L2: Give him phantoms L2 and move on.
-L3: Give him phantoms L3 and move on.
-L4: Give him Arbitor pet, probably with a timer on him, maybe say like a minute or so. Has recall. Scrab stasis, not useful at all and toxic to gameplay. I propose you can upgrade the damage, I would say give it Low base damage but a high modifier.

Volt+Mutant:
-DM curses will dial through after transforms (super and chaos) which is silly. It was always u rushed to transform because she hard counters both anyway. This was their one way to avoid being stuck in a no
win situation. Essentially give super transforms 100% curse immunity again, for better counter play.

Volt:
-L3: Same problem with Assassin's L2, sometimes removes the spawn, not neutralize it. Buggy code, only seen in G3f so w/e.

Archer:
-There have been alot of calls to bring the archer camps back, without compromising his current state. Specifically spores and nydus. Could also be justified with Nuke coming back. Sunken Colonies were always poo/poo. Maybe gives two drones on double cast on L2?

LM:
-L4 could be much better. Think in Flashbeers TS version he gave him a clone that would mimic the spell he casts. I think this is a start. However, that clone should Feed Like All balls if killed. I think Casting L4 again while clone is active should teleport LM to him. Serves a double function. The clone could be a regular High templar. And the clone should be fairly weak durability wise, high risk high reward spell. And LM damage wise is high AF.


Terrain stuff:

-North team top base outpost spawn path has that horrendous canyon up there, been a complaint by many needs definite fixing up. Makes for awkward clashes and pathing spazzes.

-Top capture outpost cannons closest to north is gayed by that big temple doodad. Really needs to be cleaned up. Again, awkward spawn clashes and spazzes AI pathing.

-Mid capture outpost bottleneck northside is a tad too small making clogs of built spawn and trapping bigger heroes, just a little bit wider.

Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on May 15 2017, 5:30 pm by Broflamingo.

Yessir

http://www.staredit.net/topic/13994/#8

First of all, I'm completely on board with all of Broflamingo's ideas and we've discussed a large portion of these already. I'd however like to still express my own ideas and concerns so possibly we can lead to further progress and development.

consolidation is key here. G3f really went far to add as many extra options and features as possible, which although was an issue in itself, it really allowed a clear picture to what is good and not to use for a consolidated version. Also, next point is that the only version I haven't extensively played is TS 1.6 but the terrain and phantom hero is fantastic. I'd like to play test the map more to mine for other ideas, my aim for any Remastered version is to make 'The' Temple Siege map and nothing less.
I'll address overall map concerns and gameplay aspects then I will address each individual hero and it's state of play:


Money Tree:

I originally thought this was crazy when I first read it yesterday because fast money build is already the strongest build, but now I've come around to really like it. Also, money build being the strongest early build is actually perfect because it really makes dramatic effect to what your first 5-10 levels are spent on. Opening this up to be an actual tree in itself is ingenious, I am 100% on board with this. Just scale the curve properly to prevent hard snowballing and it's good to go. Reminds of the +spawn, which I find is the most underrated build and affect of game flow currently in the game.


Temple, Cannons, and Caps:

- The vulnerable temple was a great game-changer, funnily enough not because of it the change of pace, but because of the adverse affect it had on base-building and cannons. Making cannons is now so much stronger than it was before, and actually mandatory when on the defensive. It has opened up the game flow extensively and there is nearly not a game where I will not build cannons. This will link back again later to Assault later on.

As such, the cannons have been buffed and actually scale into the game. This is another strong idea that I'd like to keep, linking in with what I said previously. The cannons and base building has become much stronger due to these changes.

Terrain:

- Terrain is quite a problem. The old terrain was so much better and much more interesting, especially on the south cap and the south side bridge when it used to exist. The major issue is the game pathing, but yet that is always an issue regardless, so possibly taking notes from 1.6 to improve this aspect, and also fixing some current issues in the terrain without causing a flat battleground.

Pick Screen:

- Pick screen 100% needs a fix. My favourite has and always was the classic pick screen where you could either rush a hero or set up before the other, or wait until someone and pick retrospectively. Had time-pressure elements and I'd argue was much more strategic than any of LoL or DOTAs pick modes. Both options presented to the player had its strengths and weaknesses; and well, just waiting it out and random had it's advantages. I also have a strong dislike for these multiple heroes on the same team, and multiple heroes in the same game I'm kind of neutral on. This pick-mode is also the most streamlined of all the choices: no artificial delays for everyone to start playing.

The second choice is to keep blind pick, remove multiple heroes on same team. Although I favour classic pick, this would still be a balance between two extremes. The main dislike I have for this is the inability to pick around the other team and removing some element of choice. Also it strongly encourages mindlessly picking. That's probably my biggest pet-hate for blind-pick.

Third option I see is a pick mode similar to DOTA or League where each team takes turns. Although it is quite effective, my only dislike once again is that it's not the much more strategic mode of classic pick. But this does however allow a sense of picking around the opposing team, which I think increases the depth of the game.

And hey, at least random will actually serve some kind of purpose rather than a scapegoat for losses. The ability to prevent the other team from intel is a strength in itself, rather than being a ball and chain for your own team. Overall, unless someone else has a better idea, I'd only consider classic-pick and turn-pick to be the only viable choices. Oh yeah, and remove 10 minerals for random again. It is not a skill, it's only purpose is to reward mindless picks for your team. The point is, v G killed off any actual productivity towards skill-picking and encourages mindless decisions; however now that it's been done we know exactly what not to do.

Tutorial:

- A tutorial would be great, not something that occurs at the start of the game, but similar to how it was implemented and individual-responsible. The game is quite easy to pick up and has no forced artificial barriers like DOTA, just an easy summary and description will go a long way for new players.

Spawn:

- Spawn at the moment is in a good place but open to further changes. Zealots buff was always intended and now they are a really effective game-changer, as well as providing some pressure to late game monsters like summoner. However, now this has made the following hydra spawn a walk in the park in comparison. I'd argue that from a gameplay perspective that if the game survives zealots, then the strength of spawn has become a non-factor and therefore the purpose of hydra spawn is to feed both teams to extreme late-game as a game-ender.

I think a solution is to just keep zealots spawning when hydras spawn occurs, and buff hydra damage by 20-30%. I think any other alternative has issues with what heroes struggle and shine at that stage of the game. Also the fact that hydras are a much more pathing-friendly unit, same for zealots. Goliaths are a bit too bulky and will probably make it horrendous to play. I wish we could implement them but the main difficulty is the limitations of the game. Definitely open to more ideas for this one.



Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 16 2017, 3:37 am by Iceman166.

A tutorial is completely unneeded. The game is not hard to understand. Tutorials in SC are always drawn out and pretty much useless. If there's a tutorial, at least make it so you have to enable it at the beginning instead of just automatically showing it.

Removing mirror matches would not be a good idea. There's no need to limit which heroes someone can play, other than if it's already been picked on their team. Sometimes it's fun to go against the same hero and see what you can do differently against them.

Special Ops and Assault need to be almost completely reworked, badly. They're incredibly basic and just not fun to play. With Special Ops, all you need to do is go HP and get upgrades, and you can steamroll through pretty much anything. Assault is just plain bad. The mechanics are horrible, and having to micro 2-3 units at once while trying to attack with a melee unit is just abysmal. Assault is only good if its teammates are right there to help him; in 1v1, he's completely useless.

Bringing back Archer camps wouldn't be a good idea in my opinion. Most the map is covered in unbuildable terrain, so you wouldn't even be able to place sunkens in good spots. That ability was always useless to me. I personally don't see anything wrong with the current Archer; it has the ability to snowball and dominate the game, but it can still be kept in check if the opposing team plays well.

Summoner needs some nerfs. Granted, I've just played a lot of 1v1 casual matches where I've fought Summoner, which its completely broken in, so my opinion is a bit biased, but it's just too easy for him to control the map. Dark Swarm needs to be 250 energy, not 100. Broflamingo already mentioned ability upgrades needing to go back to costing minerals, which is especially true for the zergling upgrades. You're going to be massing mana anyways, so having ling speed and attack cost like 150 gas is nothing. If it were up to me, I'd make lings be leashed to the Summoner within a large area - just something so that it can't just sit at the Temple all game long and demolish everything without fear of dying.

Hi All, I will try to see if I can implement these changes to v1.4, as it is the only unprotected version I have. EDIT: Other than 1.5 and 1.6
If anyone has a later version that is unprotected, please post it or send it to me. Thanks.

I'm going to attempt to reply for things that I will for sure do, and things that I for sure won't. The unmentioned are lower on my to-do list, or I agree with entirely and don't need to mention.

I won't be able to work on the map very much, however, due to time constraints, but I'll try, and I'll post updates for you here.
Lastly, I've set up a TS Discord here: https://discord.gg/eBx5CN6

Sounds good.
why the fuck was it changed to gas
This can be implemented in two ways
1. The higher number of assims there are, the more exponentially higher the money is. (speed of gathering or amount gathered)
2. The longer the game is, the more exponentially higher the money is.
Opinions on this will be appreciated.
I am unsure what is "classic" and what is not. I am, however, concerned about the max hp max attack strat for the marine, and has always been. I have always thought about switching the unit Firebat and Marine for Assault and Spec Ops, but this is a pretty big change.
I treated "Spec Ops" as the "NoobTube" of the game, letting beginners play a lower skill but higher power hero. IIRC I put Spec Ops at the top of the hero picking area because of this (of course, IAGG put the new heroes on the top of the screen to showcase the new heroes)
SCV used to build bunkers, but bunkers are wonky with triggers, so I agree with removing SCV.
I am iffy on L3 Sniper only because Phantom has it as well.
Assault is also wonky, even from the get go. I will most likely rework him quote a lot.
Fine, but I will have to rework them.
So, Phantom with a face-lift.
From v1.5, LM has an L3 that gives him a clone, and casting L3 again lets him teleport.
I can probably copy and paste another terrain on.
There seems to be differing opinions on this. Normally, giving players all the choices above is best, but may extend the pick screen more.
Alternating pick was also in v1.5/1.6, and is done with P1 first, then P4, P5, then P2, P6, P3.
I don't think so. The amount of work versus its payoff is very bad.
There has always been a big problem with Archer's L2 and L3. If Archer Companions are L3, hardly anyone uses it. If Archer Companions are L2, it becomes very effective. At the moment, I am leaning on L2 being Archer Companions, but it makes drones @ L3 a less than stellar ability.
Unfortunately, this is tied to Archer's Companion, making it difficult to balance.If Archer Companions are L3, it is possible to buff it significantly while lowering the limit of companions allowed, making the spawns more effective.

What you said about assault is absolutely wrong. With bomber he rapes melee bad. And power specops loses power so fast its crazy heres who counters him (Med,DM,Assn,Asslt,Volt,Mutant,LM mid game). Power specops is power is early game midgame and up he drops off hard against competent people. There are replays up on youtube displaying the power of each of these heroes, just disproving these thoughts completely. On top of this, I main power ops. I've played pure power ops for 1+ hour games. Hes nowhere close to op. Assault rapes almost all melee. Assault can 1v1 almost all his counters with ease, but you don't play that much so I would understand.

However your opinions about being unfun is an opinion and I cannot disprove.

Archer camps I think would be good to expand gameplay. What you say about the terrain is true, but it would be for Nydus and Spores. Alot of people want Nuke back for firebat, more dectection and options never hurt.

Im glad you you agree with the summoner changes. Here is the tricky part, is 100 swarm absolutely beatable? Yes. Is it fun for casuals and noobs, absolutely not. I proposed 125, but it means something if you and I, who both play different amounts of TS see the absurdity in it.

However I have to counter, the leash mechanic has been and absolutely proven to be discredited unfun, and terrible. Also everyone has access to reavers. Nobody likes the leash mechanic, nobody. SC2 proved this. And honestly to be fair there are plenty of heroes who can reach him in his hiding spot in base.

I actually agree with you about the tutorials too. You can make like 2 minute tutorial on youtube or something be done with it.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 16 2017, 9:39 pm by Broflamingo.

Here is the disconnect. Nobody wants Ops or Assault reworked. They don't need to be reworked. A

gain power ops is easily countered. If you are going to make changes you should watch pro games, they are now on youtube. You don't have to go through hurdles to collect replays anymore. There is more than enough game play on the tube.

Because these are not even issues to anyone who is competent in the game. What you consider "imbalanced and wonky" to players are actually boons and what players enjoy. If you go power ops you lose his farm potential, for him and his team, for early to mid-game pressure which is a legitimate strat.

When ops and assault switched places it was terrible. The game is almost in a perfect position only certain things need tweaks for a perfect, playable balanced map.

Edit: Btw, the ONLY time i've heard power ops be called unbalanced was here on SEN. That's not a shot btw, it's just anyone whos played more than enough knows his power spikes and how to outlast him.

Assault is not wonky, and hes in a good place. I wish i kept my cache of old replays (was @ 1.2k) because now I must have over 1.7k+ now games under my belt. Listen to the fan base, nobody clamored for the reworks and they balanced. And some of the most beloved hero's in the game.

Edit, EDit: When you say rework almchemist and general...what do you mean? Make them completely different heroes? Because Alchemist is already a boss, the L4 just needs tweaking hes an awesome hero and has a good reception from the fans.

I can admit I like general. But people find him boring. I think the framework is there but i could understand if you wanna tinker with him.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 16 2017, 9:32 pm by Broflamingo.

UnholyUrine, the fast Hp and attack on Spec Ops isn't because it's of any inherent overpowered strength that hero has with those upgrades, it's because 5+ minerals into attack and some Hp is a core build on most heroes.

Spec Ops is just the most obvious hero to go hp and attack on.

This means that all the poor players who rush spells and have nothing but 6 attack every game will actually build their hero properly for once by dumping levels into minerals and Hp. In fact, Spec Ops main strength is that he is quite effective without requiring 3 levels into an L2, which heroes like Mutant may require to apply real pressure.

Most games players should be pouring their first 5 levels into minerals, and with any deviation used with awareness of this fact. The issue once again since I started playing this game:

every player will rush spells, no hp, no attack, no armor, and wonder why they lose against any hero who can A+Click with 10 upgrades.

And to go on further with this point, it's also why many other heroes have been noob-coated into being OP e.g Summoner. The public players just throw games away with 0 attack builds against mid-game monsters when they should be focusing on hard early aggression. The whole competitive balance of this game is being diluted by public opinion.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 16 2017, 10:29 pm by Iceman166.

Dont forget to add back the built in tutorial older versions used to have. That would greatly help newcomers and save us time explaining and teaching. IAGG really did mess some good ideas and stuff.