Of course they did, the spatial flexure problem is mitigated by using the protoss warp technology capabilities to bend spacetime at random in order to create a properly sized flux vortex. Of course, there is a small chance of catastrophic failure by accidentally transfusing the spacetime of say, a star at random instead of empty space, resulting in horrific gravitational anomalies, but the density of the universe being approximately 3*10^-28 kg/m^3 results in a probablity of failure sufficiently small to warrant the extreme weaponry.

Do your homework sax

Cheers for that MLG link dude I would never have found that.

Most/all of these new units are retarded and the multiplayer is looking more and more stale. The skill ceiling has leveled out already, though, so that's no real surprise for anyone who still plays the game.

The Tempest isn't a drastic bad choice because of its art, but because of its role. They replaced the Carrier for it? That iconic unit that we all know and love? Yeah, okay, whatever, but it also nullifies a need for Void Rays. Why bother with those things? Your air force will consist of Tempests and Phoenixes, if that. Void Rays don't have the range of a Tempest and their attack isn't as powerful. From what I've seen, Tempests aren't that hard to get half a "control group" of (that's 6, for those of you who lol at control groups). It's not that difficult to picture Protoss players massing Tempests and Phoenixes and paying no heed to Void Rays at all. I don't see Void Rays ever being used, except in the very rare occasions that the Carrier itself was used. We've got ourselves another martyr unit now.

The Oracle is nonsense. Pulling Freeze Breath from WC3 and making it a long-lasting spell ruins the entire feel of the concept to begin with. This is the kind of shit that shows that Blizzard is TRYING to get the players to play dirty. That, and Hellion Transformers. Oh yeah let's roll past their expansion's defences and up their ramp (because EVERY FUCKING MAP HAS THE SAME FUCKING MAP SCHEME YOU START ON HIGH GROUND AND GO THE FUCK DOWN FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT RAMPS THAT SUCK ASS), transform into Bumblefuck, and play 'incinerate a worker' for a little bit. Is the Shredder still here? Did they have any (un)common sense left?

The anti-mechanical Warhound missiles are just straight hard-counters to tanks and Colossi, and have no use against Zerg, so there you go. It's obvious Blizzard can't creatively include options for the player; they have to sit his ass down and point at the Build Warhound button for that to happen. The Viper, too, is a hard counter to any artillery units and the animation isn't even well-thought-out. It looks way too frail to pull the Siege Tank and it made me giggle a little bit when it happened.

All in all, these units are horrible, the story isn't looking like it'll be much better, and the gameplay is starting to stale, as well. Bleh. Better luck next time.

Void Ray = unit for a specific opening, else support damage. Strong versus massive units due to bonus damage.
Tempest = unit to force the enemy to engage or retreat in lategame. It's a strategical support unit, not the main damage dealer. Or to snipe enemy key casters before the battle starts like the viper to protect your colossi. It has low DPS for it costs, so you can't mass it. If someone does it, get a few detectors and anti air units or eat his eco/base with cheap units like zerglings or hellions.

edit:
The Oracle sounds cheesy, yes. But it's another form of harassment and it doesn't kill your workers, so it isn't as strong as psi storming them.

Hellions priority will be killing workers if you try to run by the defenses with them. You wouldn't try to kill the enemy army on a ramp with them. They only deal serious damage in battle mode to melee light units. So only Zerglings and Zealots. Killing zealots lategame was their intention.

Oh, and the game isn't even in beta, so the units might be way to strong or weak. Just remember the 1 supply, armored roaches in WoL's beta. Those were beasts...

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 20 2012, 2:11 pm by Ahli.

I was actually speaking about what was showcased in the 1v1 match, where the Protoss player repeatedly built them for a good amount of the game. But thanks for quoting my entire post and responding to only a few points I made, which makes it look like you invalidated my entire argument when you didn't.

You didn't mention the 1vs1 battle report. So I read your post as an interpretation of the unit's roles in a competitive match. Then I responded with my understanding of the unit's roles in a competitive match and in that perspective which differs in some points to the roles you put the units into.
I can't read other people's minds. I can only work with the written words and not any other communication channel.

He responded to everything except the Warhound missiles and the Viper. And your argument about the Viper was that it counters artillery, which is hard to respond to because you didn't really say why that's bad. Besides, what with all your yelling and stuff, it was rather a hard post to read. There's really no need to be so angry/arrogant /over a computer game/.

I have to agree with BioPhys here that there is no need to get angry about a game.. especially Blizzard's. They've already shown us how much of their pedigree they're willing to throw away to make more money or for no good reason at all, why get mad at them now? Are you seriously so invested in SC2 that you'd rage for that??

But Pr0ngo, you've made some very good points that hasn't been rightly addressed.

1. Carrier as a martyr unit - There is simply no excuse for them to be left in the dust. It just goes to show that if Blizzard got a dollar for every fuck it gave about its previous games, they'd be broke. Carriers were the first unit that greeted you in SC1, and also the one that destroyed the planet, which ultimately got the terrans caught into this whole thing. To neglect such a key unit in SC history is blasphemy.

2. Too many hard counters - One can legitimately say that Vipers and Warhounds are simply conceived by hard counters. However, this is still very beta, so things will probably change. There is a good reason to counter tanks and artillery - to prevent turtling, which most likely ruins a lot of low-mid level games.

3. Too many harass units - I think your underlying argument isn't that the new units are all about harass and that makes everyone dicks. The real problem is that the new units do not substantially change the game and/or are too niche. This, I fully agree. All of the new units do not provide anything innovative or creative to the table. Yes, they all have their functions, such as the Viper allowing zerg players to take out spell casters more easily, the warhound to take out collossi, the mothership thing to help out with toss expansion. But they all seem to simply affect the underlying mechanics, rather than introduce something new or evolve it in anyway. The one exception to this is the Swarm Host, which I think is the only innovative unit here, and will affect greatly how players play.

It didn't seem like I had to based on the previous discussions in the thread. My mistake.

I was more irritated with the way he'd responded than the video game. However, I am pretty irritable when it comes to SCII. It's a load of shit; that alone wouldn't have affected me, but seeing as it has completely destroyed the positive legacy of StarCraft... You can see where I'm going. I take the game seriously and if you think that's a flaw, that's fine.

To me, it isn't an issue of ignoring the unit as far as SC history/lore/legacy goes because I'm already pissed off about that - enough so that I barely bother voicing my complaints at this point. I'm moreso irritated about how its replacement doesn't suit the Protoss aesthetically and doesn't compliment their army without removing other opportunities. Other than the fact that it REMOVES a unit, an EXPANSION pack doesn't usually REMOVE opportunities.

There is a good reason to counter artillery but the units here are HARD counters. Anti-mechanical missiles are hard counters to Siege Tanks and Colossi. Entomb is a hard counter to expanding Zerg. Instead of giving players several opportunities to explore the game for themselves and find intelligent counters/solutions to their problems, they're sat down by Blizzard and told which button to click. That's my issue with those units.


The Swarm Host is the only unit that even remotely seems like a Zerg unit, and its function isn't even properly thought out lore-wise or properly implemented gameplay-wise. It seeks to replace the Lurker as far as cloaked attacks go, as well as serve as a ground artillery unit. Zerg don't DO ground artillery. It just doesn't work for them; it doesn't feel right.

It's like they're using WoW as inspiration instead of Aliens and Starship Troopers.

I think you're using the term "hard counter" rather liberally...

When you say hard counter, you should only be talking about things on the scale of lings vs banes, or phoenix vs muta

Phoenix doesnt hardcounter muta that bad... they may be able to kite them, but if the enemy is massing phoenix you shouldn't get mutas in the first place.

They should keep the Carrier I think though, the Carrier is a classic SC unit!! How can they remove it!! They just need to fix it, make it stronger, more viable, increase the interceptors HP or damage by like 1. Any of these things will make people want to use them more. Also, another thing they can do is make the carrier more micro-savvy. In SC1, you could send out the interceptors by attacking, then move away just a little bit, then attack again. This micro style would effectively keep the enemies away from you, while also ensuring a large amount of damage done to enemies.

In SC2 the carrier interceptors return as soon as you issue the move command, which completely destroys the ability to micro-move the carriers away from danger while dealing damage. In this way Blizzard has completely reduced the skill cap on most of the units they are creating. Some of the new units are decreasing the skill cap even more... which is so sad. =(

Pheonix with range upgrade. And we aren't talking about strategy, of course you don't get mutas against pheonix.

My point is everyone immediately uses the word "hard counter" even when the unit is just simply a counter.

Carriers and BCs have their role. They're for lazy players that don't want to scout, but have way more resources than their opponent. They can't be hard countered, and they don't hard counter anything. It's just basically something the enemy can't do anything against if they fall behind too much, at which point the game should really end already.

BCs are hard-countered by Vikings in SC2 WOL, i.e BCs can be taken down by a far less costly group of Vikings, which you can build with a reactor no less.

Vikings don't "hard counter" anything. 3 vikings are roughly equal to 1 battle cruiser. If you can get 4 vikings for every 1 of your opponents BC's, then you aren't behind them in macro, and even then you only have air superiority. If you have air superiority with vikings, that's all you have. If you have it with BC's, you have the game.

Edit: Thought of another legitimate hard counter. Roach > hellions.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 1 2012, 2:52 am by Roy. Reason: Edit instead of double-post, yeah?