Staredit Network > Forums > SC2 Melee > Topic: (2)Paradise Outpost
(2)Paradise Outpost
Aug 29 2010, 7:50 pm
By: ImagoDeo  

Aug 29 2010, 7:50 pm ImagoDeo Post #1





Only potential problem that I know about right off the bat is that Zerg can capture a third with little difficulty. Other than that, it's a pretty straightforward map.

EDIT - Oh, I forgot. In-game, the minimap shows no color. It's just black. Does anyone have a fix for this? It probably has something to do with my tileset modification - it contains textures from Bel'Shir, Port Zion, and Xil.

Additional edit - In case you're wondering, mains are NE/SW. Not NW/SE.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 29 2010, 8:18 pm by ImagoDeo.



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Aug 29 2010, 7:59 pm fat_flying_pigs Post #2



I like the map textures, looks pretty.
Zerg does seems a lil op on this map as it appears difficult to choke them out.
I like the high yield nat

An idea: Put 1 gas at the high yield, and 3 gas on the other one to force the player to choose between gaining more gas, or more minerals.



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Aug 29 2010, 8:13 pm ImagoDeo Post #3



Quote from fat_flying_pigs
I like the map textures, looks pretty.
Zerg does seems a lil op on this map as it appears difficult to choke them out.
I like the high yield nat

An idea: Put 1 gas at the high yield, and 3 gas on the other one to force the player to choose between gaining more gas, or more minerals.

No, no, wait
Mains are not NW/SE corners, they're NW/SE NE/SW corners.

Holy crap, stupid keyboard. :disgust:

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 29 2010, 8:28 pm by ImagoDeo.



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Aug 29 2010, 8:33 pm fat_flying_pigs Post #4



Awww, It looks really... weird and awesome the other way.
Eh, this way, it looks really standard.
Looks balanced from what I can see. NJ.



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Aug 29 2010, 10:50 pm Syphon Post #5



Holy shit long rush. Also, I think it's too narrow, and the golds are too easy to defend.



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Aug 30 2010, 2:22 pm ImagoDeo Post #6



Quote from Syphon
Holy shit long rush. Also, I think it's too narrow, and the golds are too easy to defend.

I originally had the debris on the other ramp into the main, but that produced a rush that was too short.

You've got some good points, though. I can make a few fixes and repost. Hold on.



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Aug 30 2010, 5:22 pm UnholyUrine Post #7



Naw, I don't think the rush distance is too long. You'd have to factor in the fact that the debris can be killed to make rush distance a lot shorter.
I like the mains the way they are right now.

I'm not too sure about your current Xel'naga tower placement. It seems kind of haphazard with those trees circling around it.
Why don't you try 2 horizontal lines of trees North and South of the xel'naga instead?

Your High yield expo is tankable. XD .. i'm sure you intended it however... and I like it.

Zerg wouldn't be too OP if you harass them with reapers... which have a TON of leeway on this map XC... (tho reapers are OP a bit anyway)... I would really hate to change the map just for reapers...



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Aug 30 2010, 7:05 pm ImagoDeo Post #8



Ok, here we go:



Better? Worse? Any suggestions?



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Aug 30 2010, 8:01 pm Syphon Post #9



Much better.



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Aug 30 2010, 9:39 pm UnholyUrine Post #10



Cool. I likes :awesome:



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Oct 18 2010, 7:32 pm CecilSunkure Post #11



It's usually important to have a more wide open middle, or at least wide open conflict areas so that races can out-maneuver Terran tank pushes. This is I believe more important in Brood War than SC2, but it is still very important when making a map. This map is going to be disfavored towards Protoss late game, and favored to cheese early game. Protoss can 4 warpgate and cannon cheese the hell out of the small gaps that allow for pylons to cast their power range from the external of the starting position platforms, onto the platforms. Since the map is so tiny, the percentage of the map that a single siege tank can take up is vastly larger than most other maps, making them much more effective. This rush distance makes a 6 pool look near impossible to stop.

My suggestions: open up the middle of the map more, somehow, to lessen the effectiveness of a sieged siege tank; isolate each starting position more so that pylon warping in with 4 gates isn't able to warp in units with a pylon on the external (or at least limit the amount of places this is possible).

Other than those issues, the map still looks pretty interesting, and I'd like to try it out.

Edit: I just realized those destructible rocks make the rush distance large. Scratch what I said about the 6pool.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 18 2010, 7:43 pm by CecilSunkure.



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Oct 18 2010, 7:43 pm Dem0n Post #12

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

Yeah, I'd have to agree with Cecil. The high yield expos are almost extensions of the players' chokes. They seem pretty easy to defend, especially with the semi-narrow walkways that lead up to them.




Oct 18 2010, 8:11 pm CecilSunkure Post #13



Oh and one more thing, get rid of the middle watch tower. That tower is going to just ruin a lot of fun in the game because it's going to give one person an unfair advantage. Whenever you see a watchtower, and a Terran player thinks "I'm putting my siege tanks right there", then it's a badly placed watchtower. I think the middle tower is going to encourage boring play.



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Oct 19 2010, 6:59 pm ImagoDeo Post #14



Quote from CecilSunkure
My suggestions: open up the middle of the map more, somehow, to lessen the effectiveness of a sieged siege tank; isolate each starting position more so that pylon warping in with 4 gates isn't able to warp in units with a pylon on the external (or at least limit the amount of places this is possible).

Other than those issues, the map still looks pretty interesting, and I'd like to try it out.

It would help if you'd point out some areas where pylon warping might be a problem. I'm not saying I can't find any by myself, but I'm not sure exactly where you believe it would be a huge problem.

Also, in other news, I'm changing the map's tileset and name, since the minimap wasn't working.



:/

So now the map's name is (2)Paradise, and the tileset is Bel'shir.



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Oct 19 2010, 7:15 pm CecilSunkure Post #15





Pretty much anywhere where you can warp in units with a pylon, without having the pylon "inside" the base.



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Oct 20 2010, 5:17 pm ImagoDeo Post #16



Quote from CecilSunkure


Pretty much anywhere where you can warp in units with a pylon, without having the pylon "inside" the base.

You're using the old image. Take a look at the new one.



Also, the two naturals (one blocked by rocks) are going to get constant attention, so only cannon rushes could make serious use of proxy pylons. By the time you have warpgate tech out, most players will have eyes in enough places that they'll see any pylons you try to put down.

I'm also going to attach the map so you can open it and see what it looks like. It's difficult to get detail from the pic.

Attachments:
(2)Paradise Outpost.SC2Map
Hits: 0 Size: 948.2kb



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Oct 20 2010, 8:09 pm CecilSunkure Post #17



Even if players will be likely to see the pylon, they won't be able to easily deal with one in the second natural (with rocks), because you have to walk all the around and through the natural (without rocks) to kill it. A good player will place the pylon so that the power barely goes up the cliff, so if they have a probe up in the main they can warp in 4 zealots right up the cliff edge. To solve this, place destructible rocks at the front entrance to the second expansion (one with rocks).



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Oct 20 2010, 10:45 pm ImagoDeo Post #18



Quote from CecilSunkure
Even if players will be likely to see the pylon, they won't be able to easily deal with one in the second natural (with rocks), because you have to walk all the around and through the natural (without rocks) to kill it. A good player will place the pylon so that the power barely goes up the cliff, so if they have a probe up in the main they can warp in 4 zealots right up the cliff edge. To solve this, place destructible rocks at the front entrance to the second expansion (one with rocks).

It actually has two entrances. :/ So what do you suggest? Should I still wall it with rocks?

I still don't think that this strategy would work late-game. A decent zerg isn't going to let a probe into his base, and if he knows there's one there already (which he should) the first few lings he produces are gonna go find it and chew it to bits. Terran wall off. And toss usually simcity, leaving a zealot to fill the gap. That leaves observers for sight, and if the toss has robo he might as well backdoor with a warp prism. I just don't think it's as big a problem as you think it is.

Maybe you should wait till I post Paradise to reply. That might change some things.



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Oct 21 2010, 12:08 am CecilSunkure Post #19



Quote from ImagoDeo
Quote from CecilSunkure
Even if players will be likely to see the pylon, they won't be able to easily deal with one in the second natural (with rocks), because you have to walk all the around and through the natural (without rocks) to kill it. A good player will place the pylon so that the power barely goes up the cliff, so if they have a probe up in the main they can warp in 4 zealots right up the cliff edge. To solve this, place destructible rocks at the front entrance to the second expansion (one with rocks).

It actually has two entrances. :/ So what do you suggest? Should I still wall it with rocks?

I still don't think that this strategy would work late-game. A decent zerg isn't going to let a probe into his base, and if he knows there's one there already (which he should) the first few lings he produces are gonna go find it and chew it to bits. Terran wall off. And toss usually simcity, leaving a zealot to fill the gap. That leaves observers for sight, and if the toss has robo he might as well backdoor with a warp prism. I just don't think it's as big a problem as you think it is.

Maybe you should wait till I post Paradise to reply. That might change some things.
A hallucinated pheonix, warp prism, running a stalker into the base, anything that gives vision would let the cheese work. I know it has two entrances, I meant putting rocks in the wider one to not allow any probes into the second natural until later game, as to prevent the whole pylon thing.

I can 1v1 with you later on this map to demonstrate possible cheese if you like.



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Oct 21 2010, 12:17 am CecilSunkure Post #20



I just realized that the middle of this map needs to be more wide open, or else tanks are going to rock it. You need to cut out the middle xel'naga, and you need to cut back on each leg of water reaching towards the el'naga, to create an open middle area. This is a must.

I also feel contains are going to be too strong on this map, and I'll edit this post later (I'm not home) with a solution.



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