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[2014-9-01. : 11:15 pm]  Sand Wraith -- So yeah, realistically, I think we'll have to deal with Earth, but given the plan for the manned mission to Mars, I'm actually pretty hopeful.[2014-9-01. : 11:15 pm] Sand Wraith -- But you still have to cross vast distances and transport the fuel.[2014-9-01. : 11:15 pm] Sand Wraith -- You'll need some sort of fuel source. If you can find the proper fuels on said asteroids, I guess it wouldn't be.[2014-9-01. : 11:14 pm]  Roy -- Will there really be a scarcity problem when we have robots manufacturing robots to automine nearby asteroids?[2014-9-01. : 11:13 pm] Fire_Kame -- Like I said, once we invent the replicator we will live in post scarcity  [2014-9-01. : 11:13 pm] Sand Wraith -- RoyRoy shouted: TL;DR: payne can't properly defend communism, so please stop talking about it in front of him. tbh, Payne is right. Communism is more a goal really.[2014-9-01. : 11:12 pm] Sand Wraith -- paynepayne shouted: Sand Wraith I don't see how you can prove that it will "always" be a problem. I meant in terms of sustainability. Sustainability is the problem. Finite resources is the source of the problem.[2014-9-01. : 11:12 pm] Roy -- TL;DR: payne can't properly defend communism, so please stop talking about it in front of him.[2014-9-01. : 11:11 pm] payne -- zoan, TLDR: "stop debating about communism. It's fucking dumb to do so. Debate about socialism instead: it's a much more practical debate."[2014-9-01. : 11:09 pm] payne -- anyways, conclusion: stop debating about communism. It's fucking dumb to do so. Debate about socialism instead: it's a much more practical debate.[2014-9-01. : 11:08 pm] payne -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: payne << Is it? Even so , finite resources will always be a problem and Communism would likely be able to provide a framework to use resources sustainably. I don't see how you can prove that it will "always" be a problem.[2014-9-01. : 11:07 pm] Fire_Kame -- paynepayne shouted: but I felt the need to enlighten the people here about this distinction so that they know about it in the futur so you're an evangelist?[2014-9-01. : 11:06 pm] payne -- and when it comes about practical socialist revolution, then the discussion can get quite deep and interesting[2014-9-01. : 11:06 pm] payne -- but I felt the need to enlighten the people here about this distinction so that they know about it in the futur[2014-9-01. : 11:06 pm] payne -- Fire_KameFire_Kame shouted: your discussing an ideal vs the practical application. In an ideal environment even capitalism would flourish. this is why I've mostly moved away from this kind of debate[2014-9-01. : 11:05 pm] payne -- I also forgot "moneyless", but I heard some theorists actually are debating that[2014-9-01. : 11:05 pm]  Moose -- I'm glad to see most or all of you agree with what I said half an hour ago.  [2014-9-01. : 11:05 pm] payne -- and this is kind of what makes a lot of socio-political debates very dumb: people criticizing communism are generally talking of socialism, and thus the pro-communist side has it very easy in their head to argue that you are wrong[2014-9-01. : 11:04 pm] Sand Wraith -- paynepayne shouted: communism IS "classless, and within a post-scarcity scenario" but you forgot "stateless" :c[2014-9-01. : 11:04 pm] Fire_Kame -- your discussing an ideal vs the practical application. In an ideal environment even capitalism would flourish.[2014-9-01. : 11:04 pm] Sand Wraith -- hm that's true. Honestly, I don't know the finer details about Communism, my friend is much better read than I am.[2014-9-01. : 11:04 pm] Roy -- Government: A government is the system by which a state or community is governed.[2014-9-01. : 11:04 pm] payne -- what you are debating is the Socialist movement of the workers during the period of time where they try to achieve communism[2014-9-01. : 11:03 pm] payne -- government = a different class of people, and thus not classless. it thus cannot exist within a communist society[2014-9-01. : 11:03 pm] Sand Wraith -- paynepayne shouted: communism IS "classless, and within a post-scarcity scenario" I really don't think this is a realistic reflection of modern Communist ideas.[2014-9-01. : 11:02 pm] payne -- you have to understand one thing about communism and some of its theorists: the definition of it is literally a system that already presupposes the perfect scenario which would make sure that the system would hold in place (which is somewhat dumb, but oh well!)[2014-9-01. : 11:02 pm] Fire_Kame -- in fifty years china will most likely declassify their "five year plan" that used communism to reunite the country and how they will/are slowly dismantle it to minimize negative impacts on the working class. It's already started.[2014-9-01. : 11:02 pm] Sand Wraith -- paynepayne shouted: Sand Wraith that's the pre-scarcity idea of communism, indeed. << Is it? Even so , finite resources will always be a problem and Communism would likely be able to provide a framework to use resources sustainably.[2014-9-01. : 11:01 pm] Zoan -- paynepayne shouted: post-scarcity means there would be enough of the necessary ressources available for everyone to use A government that relies on there being post-scarcity is stupid.[2014-9-01. : 11:00 pm] payne -- Also, Zoan, maybe you should visit a Rainbow Gathering once in your life  [2014-9-01. : 11:00 pm] Sand Wraith -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: I think Kame is saying the culture assimilates the communistic ideals, not the other way around. I think that's mostly fine. It sounds reformist though, which is problematic if you're asking the people in power and who control the means of production to give it up for the good of the people.[2014-9-01. : 11:00 pm] Fire_Kame -- what's the good of it all in building a wall when in front of your eyes it disappears?[2014-9-01. : 10:59 pm] Sand Wraith -- ZoanZoan shouted: Well even could be, I don't think communism would ever work. It assumes a wrong viewpoint of human nature, which is that we are all good. Sigh, that's wrong. Communism doesn't need to assume something that fantastical. Most people aren't lazy enough for laziness to be a problem. Capitalism doesn't even particularly spur innovation. Having basic necessities met and providing time to play and experiment to people is more than enough to drive work and labour, amongst other things such as personal and social fulfillment.[2014-9-01. : 10:59 pm] payne -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: payne No, I don't think that's true. Scarcity will always be a problem. Communism addresses that by distributing resources appropriately such that scarcity never impacts one group overwhelmingly (as capitalism presently permits). that's the pre-scarcity idea of communism, indeed.[2014-9-01. : 10:58 pm] payne -- thus, once you have all you need provided, why would you need a market system?[2014-9-01. : 10:58 pm] payne -- post-scarcity means there would be enough of the necessary ressources available for everyone to use[2014-9-01. : 10:57 pm] Sand Wraith -- paynepayne shouted: Zycorax theoretically, indeed. Communism is post-scarcity, for example. Once post-scarcity... hell, what wouldn't work? No, I don't think that's true. Scarcity will always be a problem. Communism addresses that by distributing resources appropriately such that scarcity never impacts one group overwhelmingly (as capitalism presently permits).[2014-9-01. : 10:57 pm] payne -- Zoan, you do know that in the theory, communism is said to be post-scarcity?[2014-9-01. : 10:57 pm] payne -- ZoanZoan shouted: Well even could be, I don't think communism would ever work. It assumes a wrong viewpoint of human nature, which is that we are all good. what does it assume of human nature?[2014-9-01. : 10:56 pm] Moose -- I think Kame is saying the culture assimilates the communistic ideals, not the other way around.[2014-9-01. : 10:56 pm] Zoan -- Well even could be, I don't think communism would ever work. It assumes a wrong viewpoint of human nature, which is that we are all good.[2014-9-01. : 10:56 pm] payne -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: Am I the only one who used the Staredit Network link of the breadcrumb trail to get to the forums? And would anyone be upset if it were changed to do that again? some have already complained about it as well, and I would definitely love it to become once again like that[2014-9-01. : 10:56 pm] Sand Wraith -- Fire_KameFire_Kame shouted: Sand Wraith how do you figure? I guess it depends on who you ask specifically, but from what I know a certain Communist lens applied alongside with feminism recognizes that there exists no universal human being. Universal traits such as hunger, need for sleep, shelter, etc. are material things that are to be addressed. Cultural assimilation is not necessary to provide such basic neccessities.[2014-9-01. : 10:55 pm] Fire_Kame -- paynepayne shouted: Fire_Kame how does communism assimilate culture? That is not what I said.[2014-9-01. : 10:55 pm] Moose -- Am I the only one who used the Staredit Network link of the breadcrumb trail to get to the forums? And would anyone be upset if it were changed to do that again? |
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