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[2014-9-01. : 11:26 pm]  jjf28 -- Fire_KameFire_Kame shouted: Roy I mean...the computers will always need us...to teach them...right? >_> <_< not once we build one to replace the teachers[2014-9-01. : 11:26 pm] Roy -- Fire_KameFire_Kame shouted: Roy I mean...the computers will always need us...to teach them...right? >_> <_< Uh... no. That will go away in time.[2014-9-01. : 11:25 pm]  Fire_Kame -- RoyRoy shouted: Fire_Kame Wait, that's a rebuttal? I mean...the computers will always need us...to teach them...right? >_> <_<[2014-9-01. : 11:25 pm] Sand Wraith -- ZoanZoan shouted: Oh, haha. I meant for it to be so... I don't know, extreme. Under capitalism, there are already extremes. If you don't see it, that only means you have the privilege of not seeing it.[2014-9-01. : 11:25 pm] payne -- RoyRoy shouted: Step 1: Automate most jobs. There aren't enough jobs for everyone. Step 2: Provide UBI due to the impossibility to have everyone earning a living wage. Step 3: Automate the rest of the jobs (the ones that are very hard / impossible to automate with current tech). There is no job where humans outperform machines. Step 4: Work becomes recreation. Nobody needs to work to earn a living, or even to live in comfort. that's one of the funny things about socialism: one of the possible steps toward post-scarcity is the automation of the work... but the more you automate work within a market system, the more the people will suffer from unemployment and such[2014-9-01. : 11:25 pm] Zoan -- Also, I just used monetary value as an example. It could be anything. Suppose you make something, and then you have to give half of what you just made to someone else.[2014-9-01. : 11:25 pm] Roy -- Fire_KameFire_Kame shouted: Roy Rebuttal: http://xkcd.com/894/ Wait, that's a rebuttal?[2014-9-01. : 11:24 pm] Fire_Kame -- RoyRoy shouted: Step 1: Automate most jobs. There aren't enough jobs for everyone. Step 2: Provide UBI due to the impossibility to have everyone earning a living wage. Step 3: Automate the rest of the jobs (the ones that are very hard / impossible to automate with current tech). There is no job where humans outperform machines. Step 4: Work becomes recreation. Nobody needs to work to earn a living, or even to live in comfort. Rebuttal: http://xkcd.com/894/[2014-9-01. : 11:23 pm] Sand Wraith -- ZoanZoan shouted: payneIf you have to use "work or starve" as a motivation for getting people to work, something is wrong. LMAO people have to work or starve no matter what, capitalism or not. Fucking lolz[2014-9-01. : 11:23 pm] jjf28 -- paynepayne shouted: how do you prove that the axioms of communism are impossibilities? by starting from axioms you share and building arguments towards the one that you don't[2014-9-01. : 11:23 pm] Roy -- Step 1: Automate most jobs. There aren't enough jobs for everyone. Step 2: Provide UBI due to the impossibility to have everyone earning a living wage. Step 3: Automate the rest of the jobs (the ones that are very hard / impossible to automate with current tech). There is no job where humans outperform machines. Step 4: Work becomes recreation. Nobody needs to work to earn a living, or even to live in comfort.[2014-9-01. : 11:22 pm] payne -- ZoanZoan shouted: payneIf you have to use "work or starve" as a motivation for getting people to work, something is wrong. I was suggesting one way that would make your argument fall down... I am not saying this is what would happen, or even that it is a good thing and that I advocate[2014-9-01. : 11:22 pm] Zoan -- Also, an axiom is that people are good, which is what I attacked at the beginning[2014-9-01. : 11:21 pm] payne -- if you're trying to destroy such a system, you attack the axioms, not the particularities of that system[2014-9-01. : 11:21 pm] payne -- what is the definition of an axiom? something you ASSUME to be TRUE at the very start.[2014-9-01. : 11:21 pm] payne -- It's just like metaphysical systems in philosophy: they build up extremely coherent system within a framework that presupposes axioms...[2014-9-01. : 11:20 pm] Zoan -- paynepayne shouted: also, you should as well realize that once everyone stops working and everyone starts starving to death, there sure as hell will be people working to survive If you have to use "work or starve" as a motivation for getting people to work, something is wrong.[2014-9-01. : 11:20 pm] payne -- ZoanZoan shouted: payneMight as well come up with an idea for a society based on unicorns flying around, since it presupposes something impossible. and btw, that is why I said earlier, "stop debating on communism"... because it presupposes things that we cannot know for sure if they are possible or not at the moment[2014-9-01. : 11:19 pm] payne -- also, you should as well realize that once everyone stops working and everyone starts starving to death, there sure as hell will be people working to survive[2014-9-01. : 11:19 pm] jjf28 -- ZoanZoan shouted: payneMight as well come up with an idea for a society based on unicorns flying around, since it presupposes something impossible. i'd join that society[2014-9-01. : 11:18 pm] Roy -- Nice slippery slope, ZoanZoan shouted: payneMight as well come up with an idea for a society based on unicorns flying around, since it presupposes something impossible. .[2014-9-01. : 11:18 pm] Zoan -- paynepayne shouted: you have to understand one thing about communism and some of its theorists: the definition of it is literally a system that already presupposes the perfect scenario which would make sure that the system would hold in place (which is somewhat dumb, but oh well!) Might as well come up with an idea for a society based on unicorns flying around, since it presupposes something impossible.[2014-9-01. : 11:18 pm] Sand Wraith -- ZoanZoan shouted: Sand WraithI didn't mean everyone working doing whatever, I meant those in power. For communism to work well, it assumes those in power, or those who are running it, are good. Also, imagine working and make 100 bucks, while your neighbor decides to skip out on work that day. At the end of the day, if this was communism, half of what you just made go to him. So now he got 50 bucks for doing nothing, and thinks to himself "Hey, this is great! I never have to do anything again!" while you think "Seriously? I guess I'm not gonna do anything if everyone who does nothing gets 50 bucks." Then the next day no one works and nothing gets done. Now imagine everyone doing that. You have problems already by assuming that you'll need monetary value, that people don't already skip out, that other people's work will be valued differently, etc.[2014-9-01. : 11:17 pm] Roy -- That will take a long time, Kame. We'll have robotic slavery for as long as possible.[2014-9-01. : 11:17 pm] payne -- ZoanZoan shouted: Sand WraithI didn't mean everyone working doing whatever, I meant those in power. For communism to work well, it assumes those in power, or those who are running it, are good. Also, imagine working and make 100 bucks, while your neighbor decides to skip out on work that day. At the end of the day, if this was communism, half of what you just made go to him. So now he got 50 bucks for doing nothing, and thinks to himself "Hey, this is great! I never have to do anything again!" while you think "Seriously? I guess I'm not gonna do anything if everyone who does nothing gets 50 bucks." Then the next day no one works and nothing gets done. Now imagine everyone doing that. ... stateless, classless... this is part of the -definition- of communism.[2014-9-01. : 11:17 pm] Sand Wraith -- paynepayne shouted: Sand Wraith you are saying it is impossible that the human race can come up with a sustainable way of living? No, I mean that sustainability will always be a factor to consider. It's a goal to attain. You never "achieve" sustainability without constantly keeping an eye over yourself and it.[2014-9-01. : 11:16 pm] Fire_Kame -- RoyRoy shouted: Will there really be a scarcity problem when we have robots manufacturing robots to automine nearby asteroids? what's going to happen when robots are considered sentient beings worthy of civil rights, and as such we're all considered racists for using Siri for gags?[2014-9-01. : 11:16 pm] Zoan -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: Zoan Sigh, that's wrong. Communism doesn't need to assume something that fantastical. Most people aren't lazy enough for laziness to be a problem. Capitalism doesn't even particularly spur innovation. Having basic necessities met and providing time to play and experiment to people is more than enough to drive work and labour, amongst other things such as personal and social fulfillment. I didn't mean everyone working doing whatever, I meant those in power. For communism to work well, it assumes those in power, or those who are running it, are good. Also, imagine working and make 100 bucks, while your neighbor decides to skip out on work that day. At the end of the day, if this was communism, half of what you just made go to him. So now he got 50 bucks for doing nothing, and thinks to himself "Hey, this is great! I never have to do anything again!" while you think "Seriously? I guess I'm not gonna do anything if everyone who does nothing gets 50 bucks." Then the next day no one works and nothing gets done. Now imagine everyone doing that.[2014-9-01. : 11:16 pm] payne -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: payne I meant in terms of sustainability. Sustainability is the problem. Finite resources is the source of the problem. you are saying it is impossible that the human race can come up with a sustainable way of living?[2014-9-01. : 11:15 pm] Sand Wraith -- So yeah, realistically, I think we'll have to deal with Earth, but given the plan for the manned mission to Mars, I'm actually pretty hopeful.[2014-9-01. : 11:15 pm] Sand Wraith -- But you still have to cross vast distances and transport the fuel.[2014-9-01. : 11:15 pm] Sand Wraith -- You'll need some sort of fuel source. If you can find the proper fuels on said asteroids, I guess it wouldn't be.[2014-9-01. : 11:14 pm] Roy -- Will there really be a scarcity problem when we have robots manufacturing robots to automine nearby asteroids?[2014-9-01. : 11:13 pm] Fire_Kame -- Like I said, once we invent the replicator we will live in post scarcity  [2014-9-01. : 11:13 pm] Sand Wraith -- RoyRoy shouted: TL;DR: payne can't properly defend communism, so please stop talking about it in front of him. tbh, Payne is right. Communism is more a goal really.[2014-9-01. : 11:12 pm] Sand Wraith -- paynepayne shouted: Sand Wraith I don't see how you can prove that it will "always" be a problem. I meant in terms of sustainability. Sustainability is the problem. Finite resources is the source of the problem.[2014-9-01. : 11:12 pm] Roy -- TL;DR: payne can't properly defend communism, so please stop talking about it in front of him.[2014-9-01. : 11:11 pm] payne -- zoan, TLDR: "stop debating about communism. It's fucking dumb to do so. Debate about socialism instead: it's a much more practical debate." |
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