Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 Melee Discussion & Strategy > Topic: Scared of Defilers
Scared of Defilers
Feb 5 2010, 1:53 am
By: ClansAreForGays  

Feb 5 2010, 1:53 am ClansAreForGays Post #1

I'm more a Z player than anything, but if a game drags past 10 minutes, I almost never win. After being honest with myself I can recognize that I'm so uncomfortable with using defilers, that I'm sacred to bother with them no matter what point has reached, or what units the enemy is building.

I guess it comes from knowing that I'm going to have to micro a spell caster, which I generally don't like. I feel like it would be better not get a hive+mound+research+defiler and instead make a lot more hydras/lurkers/mutas. having to use defilers ruins everything I like about playing zerg. Up till then I get to just swarm with shit and attack+move micro. Then all of a sudden I have to basically storm shit. Plague I can stand, but I just don't see how some pro sc players think dark swarm is the best thing in the game. It's not the large of an area, and the enemy can just run out of it! I don't get it! I've never had dark swarm work out of me.

I also think ultras have no use outside of getting rid of resources fast(that you shouldn't have let accumulate in the first place).

Is this just a phase that all z players go through until they grasp defilers?

Feb 5 2010, 2:08 am Excalibur Post #2

The sword and the faith

You should really be asking on TL. I doubt anyone besides maybe Dazed is qualified to give you advice at any above average level.

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Feb 5 2010, 2:17 am Super Duper Post #3

If they went tanks, you shouldnt be getting DS anyways. But you probably knew this.


Feb 5 2010, 2:10 pm BeDazed Post #4

Dark swarm mechanics is simple. You probably know what dark swarm does, but judging by my past experience on you- I'll try my best to explain. And try your best to follow.
The most basic ZvT basically goes like this.
Z takes nat, take a 3 hatch build route, go mutas, harass until first marine batch comes knocking at your doorstep.
Usually against any muta build, T prefers 1 rack double cc to 4 rack builds- +1 upgrade. you block the first batch after stalling some time with zlings, mutas, and sunks- you probably wouldnt be able to harass once marines get +1 upgrade, so by then you should have some lurks. when first batch is blocked, you go straight to getting 3rd- which is important when you're going hive, and THEN you get straight to defilers, and DS- which is a relatively mid play strategy. By this time, T should have one or two tanks and sci vessel with irrad coming up. note that one or two tanks does NOT mean the terran went tanks. Theres a difference between 2 fac and 1 fac 1 port build. Now here's the important part. By now you should have a group of lurkers, shit ton of zerglings, and maybe mutas that you haven't lost, yet. Now normally, T army WILL rip apart any defiler-less Z army at this time. But if you have defilers with consume, then T will have harder time, and it won't rip Z army apart when you're inside swarm. Note that you should have a few scourges out to chase sci vessels, or they will just irrad your defilers. Remember to micro them. You can continually cast dark swarm to follow them, they end up losing parts of their army. Go for a 4th immediately, and get ultra tech. etcetc and so on.

But the point is, what DS does is keeping your army alive. Without DS, full upged rines will rip apart about anything you throw at it, and you'd never have enough plagues to cope with all of them.
Even if zerglings are expendable, they aren't infinite.
And plague research takes time, longer than you know. late game plague has some use, but mid game? You'd be wasting your valuable resource, and maybe valuable timing that allowed you to go for a 4th. If you can't make a 4th- then you're probably screwed.
And uh, late game if T can collect a lot of vessels, like 10 to 12- then you are also f'ed too.
And the key part of zerg play lies within defilers, and if you can't cope with that- I'd suggest giving up playing Z. I can agree that microing defilers at first isn't a pretty sight, because it is slower than other units- it takes some hotkey micro.

I did get a tad incohesive, but I think you'd get what I'm trying to say- since you've been throwing units at T without swarms.

If they went tanks, you shouldnt be getting DS anyways. But you probably knew this.
You shouldn't be going lurks either.

Is this just a phase that all z players go through until they grasp defilers?
Z has the most steep learning course because of the fact that every move they make requires defilers in order to compete in firepower.


Feb 5 2010, 9:13 pm Koltz Post #5

a lot of low level players can dual-tech spire/lurks, keep the T contained with 3 lurks outside nat while harassing with mutas, tech straight to defilers, and now you don't have to swarm push all the way to the T base.
Swarm in nat of T base = gg most of the time. Allows you to take like 3 exps at once and the T is contained for a pseudo-unlimited amount of time.


Feb 7 2010, 9:47 am fat_flying_pigs Post #6

I've seen 2 uses for ultras: 1) shreading T mech balls. Use 2-4 ultras to tank, and 30-50 lings from at least 180 degrees. The ultras mine drag + have tanks splash each other + tank for longs. Once the longs are in, it's all dead. 2) punching a main. The main base usually has some units defending (a couple bunks+tanks, or Templars and zealots) these combos rape most Z ground since they splash. Ultras just tank.


Feb 7 2010, 5:17 pm Aristocrat Post #7

It's very hard to play Z well in ZvT for an extended period of time without dark swarm. Without DS you pretty much have to resort to doom drops, and even then they aren't effective without dark swarm.

Really, plop down two swarms and pick your defiler back up in the overlord, not hard.


Feb 8 2010, 12:13 am BeDazed Post #8

Ultras is essentially a tank that's only effective with dark swarm. Remember that even if Ultras have tons of defense, they will still get their ass raped by tons of marines- you need dark swarm or they will just own you.
T will just pump out ass load of marines and lots of sci vessels while dropping all over the map. Remember that mines and tanks aren't standard play in ZvT,

The main base usually has some units defending (a couple bunks+tanks, or Templars and zealots) these combos rape most Z ground since they splash. Ultras just tank.
Usually, marines are sent in batches in ZvT- in microable 3-4 groups, and sometimes 1 drop with a group of sci vessels. In late game llarge scale battles, 10 group micro is possible. But since the main base always pumps out units, there's always tons of marines defending the main- likewise to any other game play.


Feb 8 2010, 5:40 pm ClansAreForGays Post #9

But since the main base always pumps out units, there's always tons of marines defending the main
huh? Those buildings should be rallied, so they won't.

Feb 9 2010, 12:42 am BeDazed Post #10

read it in context. its late game, and most players rally their units towards their nat entrance- and what they do is defend. its like breathing, there's always some air left in your lung.


Feb 9 2010, 6:03 pm Koltz Post #11

the bottom line is that to play zvt you need to master swarms.

fact: using swarm in the middle of the map is much harder than at a choke point.
fact: you'll only become better at control by using it
fact: defilers also have plague

try not to attack in the middle of the map, that's what T wants. go around and hit an expansion. keep a defiler around at your exps that way you can swarm the choke and repel an attack.
if you are forced to engage in the middle of the map, don't forget a nice plague can destroy an unstoppable push

oh and keeping vessel count low is vital with usage of defilers. thankfully plague makes it much easier to take down vessels.


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