2x.

Just close ur eyes, and tell ur brother/cousin/parents to pick for you

Indeed I Do wanna hear more about the new ver . . ... . Marine'll be changed ya... same for mech's L4
what about battletank?
what about new temple HP?
what about archer's new +5 upgr? in respect to other heroes that have low dmg? (medic) too high dmg maybe? (volt)
How are the spawns, anyone used it as a strategy?

New Temple's HP is a bit much. It took like 30 Assassin's l4 to take it down. Assasults are definitely useless in this game now, their nukes barely hurt it.

Battletanks needs to be modified to carry only 1 scarab.
Marines are okay, because they have their counters, but people seem to go for it in all games.
Mech's L4, IMO isn't that over powered, because it is a medium range and you can't really get killed unless you run into them.
Archer's +5 missle damage should stay, if not increase.
Medic shoud be upgraded in damage, but not damage upgrade.
Volt can't really be balanced, but it does have some minor counters.

Aw. Can't believe I missed it.

- Assassin's L4 is "decapitate." It shouldn't be able to kill the temple like it used to, I don't think.
- Nukes should kill the temple in two hits, not sure where you're getting that from.
- I don't use battletanks, not sure.
- Mech's L4 he already said will be changed so I won't bother countering how wrong what you said is.
- Archers +5 is enough, it makes L3 viable because the upgrades are worth getting in the first place. Seems balanced as is.
- I think both need to be increased for Medic, but make it's L4 only heal to the max level upgraded to. It basically goes from being weak to being godly when you get L4, that would make it more balanced because it does have decent other spells.
- Volt definitely does a great deal of damage for having such versatile spells. He has two stuns, a significant mana drainer (plus L1), and a supermode, and is the only unit that can pull heroes off the heal. Plus, he has ranged splash damage, so he gets experience faster than most. More importantly though, when he uses his stuns he can't be manualed by melee heroes. Yes, EMP's fuck him. Not much else does, though.

Things I did like:
- Temple HP seems about right, perhaps still a bit high but not by much. My team had a big lead in our first game, moved into their base, and took down the temple while both heroes were in spawn. It took a couple of minutes and they ended up leveling past us pretty quickly. Thankfully the summoner evidently didn't know how much Ultralisks own, and the Zealot never got his L3. -.-

- Mutas seem balanced. See an equal number of people tech to L3 as spam L1.

- Ling seems balanced. (Definitely a more than viable option to go for melee upgrades, not ranged upgrades.)

- Maelstrom seems balanced, can be very useful if played well.

- Broodling life upgrade! Except double the life and their damage, ditto all other spawns

- No one used the spawn tricks.

- At least until the last match, players in the tournament were well mannered.

Things I didn't like:
- Cannons have 2500 life now? The armor didn't drop either, seems like a pointless increase. Make the pylons harder to kill than cannons, but there's no reason for the cannon's HP to be raised.

- Spawned goliaths gave some ungodly amount of experience, I think it was like 20 each, even though the cap is supposed to be 16.

- Marine HP+Damage spam owns everything. I'd be willing to bet that the team that had the marine (and I'm 95% sure it was picked in every game of the tournament) won. It was true in the 3 games my team played. Since this still hasn't been fixed, my solutions: L2=Vessel, EMP=250 energy. L3=SCV, buildings=Gas. L4=S.W.A.T. Team (4 summoned marines, permanent. The upgrades on these are very important, they can't be too powerful. Probably 15+1 would fit, and that matches the Marine spawn's damage.

- Mech is still too powerful in my mind even without taking into account the L4. My tentative solution is to remove vulture speed, but I really don't know how much of an effect that will have. I just know that as a vulture I can completely dominate any Zergling, Zealot, Summoner, Firebat, or DM until they get L3/L4, and usually after that as well. AHA! Make Vulture Speed researchable. Raynor by default doesn't have it, so this will be a pretty simple change. I'd suggest 100 minerals or so, because it really is a huge difference. You can also make Charon Boosters and Siege Mode researchable for a lesser price. That will also fix the problem with the Mech usually having so many damage upgrades in comparison to everyone else, which may indirectly make the L4 less imbalanced.

- The DM's maelstrom is balanced, but the DM really isn't too useful other than that. I honestly don't even know what its L3 is because I've never seen it used effectively enough to cause me to take note of it. When I play as DM, I must read through it going "that's useless." The L4 is somewhat useful, but it's a L4, and DM's tend not to EXP well against a good team because it's more of an individual PK'er. So that really makes teching a DM kind of a waste. It would be nice to give it a teleport L4 I think( Current L4--->L3). A cloaked wraith which can move for maybe 6-8 seconds. Give it 200 life though and if it gets shot down kill the DM. If it ends up over a non-spawnable place, return the DM.

- I'm just going say that the Summoner's L2 is useless. Someone used it against my teammate and all three of us simultaneously went "lol dumb move" or variations thereof. I never see its L3 get much use either, making the character pretty straightforward, although difficult to use well.

- Medic goes from being awful, awful, awful, to being amazing in the exact moment when it gets its L4. Barring disable, which can be useful in some cases but requires the Medic to be pretty much standing on top of someone to use it, due to its charge-up animation, so it can't fend for itself against a solid hero. I'd honestly say that I don't think 20+6 would be rigged for the Medic if the L4 was toned down to healing to max upgrading life-level. If this isn't enough, perhaps give a LENGTHY charge-up to L3, maybe 10 seconds, and then give nearby allies AND the Medic itself +120 mana. It and Assault are the two classes which deal only concussive damage, and I'd hazard a guess that they are the two least used characters too.


In the above I gave a lot of ideas. Use them or not, but either way, I think every problem that I outlined could use fixing. Any questions/comments, please reply. A lot of these solutions are tentative, there may be variations that would work better.

Thanks

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2023, 12:48 pm by Decency.

Also I agree summoner's 2-3 need to be changed as well as assaults 2.

Is all that needs changing imo.

totally totally true, 50 mana for a single timed grenade, or 80mana for a transport+scout+spy+4 grenades? not much comparison assaults lv2 is utterly useless.

Well that sucked, I assumed it would be a few weeks away, and I didn't even bother looking at the date...missed it.

decency i want you to fight blus medic and tell me its crap until he gets full heal...

I haven't seen him, I've honestly been trying. A medic is really only effective against a DT and very spell based characters like Volt or a DM until it gets L4. Most of the time the L1 is worthless because it just gets killed off before you have a chance to suicide it. The L3 tends to be too expensive to use, considering how it's 40 more mana to use your L4, and once you get that you won't need another spell for the rest of the game. That's why I suggested making the L3 give 120 mana to allies AND the medic, so it can see use later in the game. That would obviously need to make the spell harder to use though, like a long channel time (10 second charge-up or so).

I'm very interested to try a team with Medic/Volt/Mutant and see what they can do if they all rush L4 while the medic L3's. I'm also not sure if there is a trigger which prevents you from going over your maximum mana. If there's not, that could be an incredibly effective team for Temple raiding. They could be using their L4's as soon as the Medic gets L3 (Only 9 civs for them and 7 for the Medic. If rushed, that's no more than around 100 experience).

120 mana every 10 seconds lul wut?

@ Faz- .. There is a mana cap trigger. It will push any mana above it back to the mana cap.
I thought i made L3 = give 120 mana.. :S I guess I was wrong or forgot about it..
the channeling time for that is already pretty slow....

Medic'll face sm changes because of it's difficulty of use =o.. Most medics are forced to put a load of money onto upgrades, hindering its mana and spell upgrades.

And yes, everything u said will be considered.

@ the idea of unlimited lives.... nah. I built the game around the 3 lives thing, and I don't want to change that.

@ tournament. Congrats to Echo... and 2v2 tournament This Saturday .. ftw? .. Hold up on the tournaments until I can produce a solid version in which I am thoroughly pleased with

I was under the interpretation that the spell "Set to 120," not "Add 120." If it's add then obviously the spell would be rigged like that. And it becomes more limited due to the cap. With no cap that could be interesting. I don't know, I'm theorycrafting stragies.

Urine, if you want us to wait, show some progress. =p

lol...
seems like temple siege is a great success
But I don't like the concept of the map >.<
it will win the SEN Award for "best map"*


I bet my ass of that

I know one of the creators (MNeox) and maybe can suggest he and unholyurine put some random hero beacons when you choose but he might not want too.

This is the tournament version.
It has the random hero beacon, forced selection after 40 seconds, different filename, etc.

EDIT: I screwed up some things in the last one, like not restoring old Broodling HP/damage. Redownload please!

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Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 13 2008, 10:27 pm by Mini Moose 2707.