When I first came to know of atheists, this pretty much sums them up. Believing that truth is explicit meaning that something is said to exist only if it can be perceived and proven through our physical senses, not trusting the Bible, or simply seeing no need for God. And IMO, these are all understandable.

However

Today, from what I've seen, it's not like that anymore. Everywhere I go, there are some people who stoop to the level of just simply going "LOL RELIGION SUX! LOLOLOLOLOL," making pictures that make fun of religion or jesus, calling red states "Jesusland" in a derogative way with an indirect message saying that religious people are stupid, believing religion is the root of all evil not knowing or overlooking the fact that it is human nature that can make anything seem bad, believing that science is an enemy of religion when it is clearly not, making petty remarks against something they haven't even read, putting bad issue or person dealing with religion in the spotlight merely for the purpose of taunting, and most importantly not knowing anything about the very thing they hate. I mean it's fine to not believe and maybe have a dislike towards religion, but is it really necessary to go out and spout unnecessary crap which only makes you seem immature, even more hated, and unintelligent? Nobody will listen to you if you present your beliefs and thoughts in such ways, it'll only make you retarded. And sure you can say that there's religious people out there who are very intolerant of atheists, bash them, and make you cringe, but if you do the same thing back, you're no better; you're simply stooping to their level. I have seen atheist websites that present their views in an orderly and mature manner. This website, the skeptics annotated Bible, unfortunately is not one of them.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 14 2008, 9:29 pm by MillenniumArmy.

We pretty much believe that there are certain rules for certain times for certain reasons.

Like the Jews way back that weren't allowed to eat meat, this was because they had contamination issues back then that they didn't know how to/couldn't take care of. (Personal speculation)

Its not really that the Black's weren't ready for the Priesthood so much as whites in general weren't ready for them to. There would have been some serious issues and targeted crimes against the church solely for this reason.

As for Millennium Army's last post, I agree. Most aethiests I meet nowadays are ignorant idiots spitting out nonsense and hate without reason or understanding.

And for anybody who dislikes religion because of religious Zealots that say you're going to hell, then I'm in the same boat as you as Catholic and most Christian churches tell me I'm going to hell for being Mormon. I dislike their close mindedness as much as you.

But please realize your generalizations are just that, generalizations.

I hope your post wasn't directed towards me, MA. I'll assume that it was directed towards everyone, but I digress.

You did make a number of good points about how many atheists don't know anything at all about what they are speaking of and how religion may be unfairly blamed for all the evils of the world. On the other hand, there are many folks who consider themselves religious without understanding anything written in the bible or holy book of choice, and many, perhaps even most of the worst human-made tragedies have been heavily influenced by religion. Am I to assume that the god of the old testament is to be taken figuratively and not literally? That would seem to be a pick and choose method of deciphering the bible. Certainly, most people wouldn't like a god that kills all but a handful of people on the planet or "allows" men to give up their daughters to be raped by angry mobs so that their male guests won't be sodomized, so it's easier to call those parts figurative.

However, I'd like to direct attention to a fun, fun site: this one! Most of you are probably familiar with it. Moderate religion enables these folks to exist. From Pat Robertson (a figure that millions of Americans look to):
Why should we take millions upon millions of Americans (hardly a straw man argument considering how many there are) who believe these absurd statements? I shudder to think what might happen if we were to give these people one more inch of political ground.

Once again, generalizing about religion, sure, some religions do bad, but there are others that do much good in the world, you can't generalize about these kind of things.

Mind telling me the year Jews were not allowed to eat meat? 576? 100 BCE? Jewish calender year 5700? If you are an Orthodox or traditional Conservative Jew, you cannot eat meat from animals: with hooves that are not cloven or that do not ruminate (chew cud). Insects, except 4 species of locust, are unkosher, birds or animals that eat other (large) animals, scavengers, shellfish, and anything that is not a true fish. Meat must be properly slaughtered and prepared and cannot be served with milk items (meat and fish are generally not served on the same plate for sanitary reasons). Jews, as a rule, do not consume blood, for it is the life essence of an animal.

Now, that doesn't exclude meat. It just excludes most of the mystery meat crap you've served daily and the kind of animals that eat dead things/animal waste or live in their own waste. Technically these prohibits should continue onto Christians (who have managed to skimp out because of anti-semitism and a man named Paul of Tarsus who never met Jesus while he lived and pronounced the ending of Jewish customs in Christianity when Jewish himself essentially said that "Not one dot or stroke of the Law has changed, I have not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill."

Enjoy your pork + crab cakes.

Now, Pat Robertson may have his followers, but there's a pretty big contingency of Americans that see him for what he is: A sham.

He's a celebrity evangelist who's in it for the money and the shot to spread some nasty feelings around. He's working in the opposite spirit of Jesus, and if I were a Christian I'd probably put my money on him working with the Antichrist. People like him are stomach-churning, but they're out there.

I think most people are simply faithful don't have the interest or the gall to say it like this, but he's fucking wrong. Even as someone trying to study Judaism, I'm sickened by the misrepresentation of Christianity that's been going on and is still going on. The main thing is when you see the word Orthodox (Jewish, Muslim) or Fundamentalist (Christian) in front of a sect of religion, run. Those people are fucking scary.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 15 2008, 3:04 am by The Great Yam.

So true, though. Those who seek to make profits off of their personal interpretation (or should I say manipulation) or the Bible is sickening.

I must mention that Mormons do not have professional paid clergy. We invite others to our beliefs because we want to share what brings us joy, not for gain. We don't try to shove it down peoples throats (and if a Mormon ever does he's acting against what we stand for).

Just some perspective.

Oh and Yam, I did note that it was personal speculation, I haven't done any research into it, just quick noticing; it's not like I was taught that.

uhh ya just a quick question since we seem to have a few people who actually read the bible in here mind explaining 'Judges 19:22-30' to me because honestly i dont seem to see the moral in a guy letting his virgin daughter be raped and a mans concubine be raped and murdered instead of some guys raping a random man he let lodge in his house, quite frankly stories like that sorta make me wonder if the bible is even about god.

I forget which part of the bible is it, old or new.

I think I recall a bit of that.

Lets see. The bible is set in the Middle East. The culture there is very hospitable and the people will take in any guest. When you have a guest in your house in the Middle East you are expected to defend your guest with your life and treat him like a king. This way of thinking is still living today and most people in the Middle East will take in anyone, regardless of race, religion, predjudices.
SEN isn't the place to discuss the bible. Go to a Christian forum or go to your local church.

Does it matter? What kind of moral, literal or figurative, are we supposed to derive from that? That god believes sodomy is worse than gang rape and murder? It really just shows how the authors of the book were sexist, as I'm sure all people were back in those times.

First of all, you have to understand that all of the Bible is not related to God, a large portion, especially of the Old Testament, is just history/stories. Now, you may notice that in the next chapter, Israel sends men and destroys the city where it was done, because it was such wickedness.


I think people should be sexist in many cases, yes, it's wrong not to allow women some things, but we sure as heck are not equal, men and women have differences, and don't try to act like we don't.

Falkoner, what you say is the reason that I simply cannot respect your opinion. The differences are arbitrary, such as the difference between blue and green shirts (read: the differences don't really matter). I love your reasoning though!
That sounds like something that was once said about blacks. Oh yeah, this.

Very well said. And yes Sael, I believe this was directed towards you, along with Hercanic and maybe O)lt.church (and if it wasn't it should have been).

But blacks and whites are the same, men and women are quite different, your comparison is not a very good one.

Often, a very naive, modernist approach goes into reading the Bible. This one looks for all tales that do not align with their "modern" views on morality and ethics. Often the customs of a society that lived 2 to 3 thousand years before you on an entirely separate CONTINENT are ALITTLE DIFFERENT. The Bible is actually a STARKLY moral book, especially in comparison with other laws of the time, that often punished things like simple thievery with death and valued royals better than other people. Another thing to note of the times is that child and human sacrifice were in common practice, and in the very first book of the Bible God states he:
Does not want human sacrifice and
Is offended by it, it shall not be done, in his name or any other god's.

The Bible is a generally very ethical book that holds many lessons people of our times do not heed (IE, the guy who builds his house upon sand shouldn't be moaning when it sinks. The country that builds its economy on a nonrenewable resource can't bitch when it runs out.)

However, the Bible is also a fascinating and deep STORY and like all stories it has CHARACTERS, historical or parable, that have FLAWS and who do things that are WRONG, even if they are appointed by God as kings or prophets.

Here's an example:
Solomon is a wise king who rules the land justly. In his age, however, he marries many women, and among them a woman who gets him to worship other gods than the God of Israel. God tells him then that he will not complete the Temple, but his son.

Here's another:
Moses is told by God that God will provide Israel with means to survive in the Desert (contrary to popular belief, Moses has NO special powers, God is simply acting through him with portents). God tells him that to get water he shall go to a rock and strike it with his staff, and tell Israel that it is God who has given them this water. However, one day the Israelites grow impatient with Moses, and he strikes the rock, releasing the water, and does not attribute it to God. Because of this, God tells him that he will not live to see the Promised Land, and Moses indeed dies outside of Israel, and is buried on a mountain.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 15 2008, 11:03 pm by The Great Yam.

edit: post deleted because although true itll likely get me in trouble because a large portion of people wouldn't agree or at best shun it. cant find delete button only edit if a mod would be so kind to delete.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 16 2008, 12:14 am by Lt.Church. Reason: Attempting to remove post

I don't respect you anymore.
But what everyone is forgetting is that the whole point of the bible is that people should believe in god.
Edit: Obviously I'm using hyberbole and don't really mean everyone.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 16 2008, 4:20 am by Zombiechao.

You're right.

Everyone just forgot that.


TYVM.

edit: delete me

Even if the bible or holy book of choice were true, I would find it difficult to bow to a god who demanded that disbelief would result in severe consequences. Wouldn't a god favor worshipers that, above all, seek truth? A sought-after truth has to be worth more than blind faith. On another note, I cannot see why folks think that religion is absolutely necessary. Humanity's morals, extenuating circumstances aside, are derived from something beyond belief in supernatural entities. Certainly, atheists have no weaker morals than religious folks, and I feel that atheistic morals are actually an improvement, seeing as atheists feel no need to meet the demands of a fictitious being. With that said, I hardly see any reason to afford religious beliefs more respect than, say, political beliefs. Dawkins (can you tell I like him?) pointed out that Quakers got a free ticket out of the draft, while it was much more difficult for conscientious objectors to stay out of the Vietnam War. If MA's comments were in fact directed towards me, I really have no idea how to respond beyond simply stating that my ideas aren't particularly immature or ridiculing. I could never imagine giving religious beliefs a free ticket - such an idea is silly and goes against the ideas that this type of forum ought to be composed of.

Beyond everything, I would rather live a good life with no expectation of reward than to keep in line merely to evade eternal damnation.