[COLOR=#CE091D]EDIT: I quoted just AntiSleep, and the quotes broke >_<[/COLOR] [quote=AntiSleep][quote=SteamBoy] [QUOTE] Which social ills do atheists cause [/QUOTE] Why are they trying to change everything. Example: Taking "Religion" out of School, Trying to take "In God We Trust" Out of the Dollar. Why are they taking away Christmas a time for Joy and Family Reuions. Vary rude people, You seem to not be rude witch is rare to where I live. I do not travel the world so I do not know witch Athiests you are hanging with or appreciate. [/quote]None of the atheists I know(and I know about 30) want to take away times of joy for families, but we do not see a reason to claim belief in something supernatural, just so we can use it as an excuse to see family. Families can get together for nonreligious holidays too. Also, we do not care if you want to believe in a god, just so long as you don't use our tax money to promote it, or try to push it on our children.[quote] Example: My mother hit a Car going about 2 mph. She said " Thank God everyone is ok " The two kid's did a strokeoff, " Like they are stroking thier Dick " and said " We do not believe in God ". [/quote]Do you really think your god had a hand in the accident? If we all relied on our superstitions alone to keep us alive, I doubt there would be many of us left.[quote] [QUOTE] how do you explain the lower crime rates in more the more secular European countries [/QUOTE] I do not know, Can you? You can probably Theorize, but no facts can be made. There for, that Question is not of importance. [/quote]It is however a fact that the most fundamentalist areas of this country are the areas with the highest STD rates, and the highest rates of children born out of wedlock. It is also a fact that atheists account for a disproportionately low ratio of the united states prison population.[quote] [QUOTE] which god do you believe in and why [/QUOTE] I believe in God (Jesus, Holy Spirit). You can call me a Christian but Im not a Church going Man. I believe in God because of my Parents of course. My mom goes to Church every Sunday. Why do I believe in God? The Bible, It's History, and the fact that I know my Family will be in a better place. Wether or not there is a God, I think that it makes me a Better person to Believe that there is a God. Not saying that it makes a Athiest a bad person for not believing in God, It's just what believing in God has done for me as many other people who believe in God, wether getting over Drug Addiction, Abuse, Rape, Alcohol, etc. To know that there is a God is to know that you'll be fine. Yes if you believe there is a God, you know that there is a Hell. I pray I go to Heaven, because I do not want to go to hell and burn over and over. And yes the source is vary credible, considering our Country was founded on the belief of God. And sence my mother is a vary good and smart women makes it credible. [/quote]How do you rule out confirmation bias?[quote] Your english is horrible, " Religion is a bad reason do do good things ", You do not know english becuase you made a mistake. - Sorry I had to do that, everyone does it to me. Nothing against you, I still understood it, and it did not keep me from replying to the question. The way I look at it, If you believe in God you think before you do something bad. Such as Stealing, Murdering , Commiting Suicide. [/quote]I should not have expected this to be understood. I am trying to say that want of reward and fear of punishment are two very bad reasons to do good deeds. Good deeds should be done for their own sake, not to get into heaven, nor to avoid hell. This said, even if you ignore post-mortem reward and punishment, none of those actions is in your self interest, even stealing and murdering might help you achieve short term goals, the risk is outweighs any long term benefit. The best motivation for moral behavior is the trust and cooperation of your community.[quote] Like of course as a Human being who makes mistakes, I have thought of Suicide many times but I believe in God so I have held myself against that. So for me to know that there is a God, is to not do bad to others or to self. To give and not Recieve. [/quote]Do you have to appeal to another authority to feel good about giving? I know from experience that the answer is no.[quote] Main reason why I hate Athiest's beliefs is because they are taking out God, if they believe there is No God why do they care that other's Believe in God, and why are they trying to take it out of everything.[/quote] As I said earlier, we do not want our tax money to be used to promote religious ideas, nor do we want our children indoctrinated. We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.[/quote] Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:[quote=AntiSleep]It is however a fact that the most fundamentalist areas of this country are the areas with the highest STD rates, and the highest rates of children born out of wedlock. It is also a fact that atheists account for a disproportionately low ratio of the united states prison population.[/quote] [COLOR=#CE091D]Without reliable sources, and proven statistics, this claim nullifies your argument against Steamboy.[/COLOR]

EDIT: I quoted just AntiSleep, and the quotes broke >_<

[quote=AntiSleep][quote=SteamBoy]
[QUOTE]
Which social ills do atheists cause
[/QUOTE]

Why are they trying to change everything.
Example:

Taking "Religion" out of School, Trying to take "In God We Trust" Out of the Dollar. Why are they taking away Christmas a time for Joy and Family Reuions.

Vary rude people, You seem to not be rude witch is rare to where I live. I do not travel the world so I do not know witch Athiests you are hanging with or appreciate.
[/quote]None of the atheists I know(and I know about 30) want to take away times of joy for families, but we do not see a reason to claim belief in something supernatural, just so we can use it as an excuse to see family. Families can get together for nonreligious holidays too. Also, we do not care if you want to believe in a god, just so long as you don't use our tax money to promote it, or try to push it on our children.[quote]
Example: My mother hit a Car going about 2 mph. She said " Thank God everyone is ok " The two kid's did a strokeoff, " Like they are stroking thier Dick " and said " We do not believe in God ". [/quote]Do you really think your god had a hand in the accident? If we all relied on our superstitions alone to keep us alive, I doubt there would be many of us left.[quote]

[QUOTE]
how do you explain the lower crime rates in more the more secular European countries
[/QUOTE]

I do not know, Can you? You can probably Theorize, but no facts can be made. There for, that Question is not of importance.
[/quote]It is however a fact that the most fundamentalist areas of this country are the areas with the highest STD rates, and the highest rates of children born out of wedlock. It is also a fact that atheists account for a disproportionately low ratio of the united states prison population.[quote]
[QUOTE]
which god do you believe in and why
[/QUOTE]

I believe in God (Jesus, Holy Spirit). You can call me a Christian but Im not a Church going Man.

I believe in God because of my Parents of course. My mom goes to Church every Sunday.

Why do I believe in God? The Bible, It's History, and the fact that I know my Family will be in a better place. Wether or not there is a God, I think that it makes me a Better person to Believe that there is a God. Not saying that it makes a Athiest a bad person for not believing in God, It's just what believing in God has done for me as many other people who believe in God, wether getting over Drug Addiction, Abuse, Rape, Alcohol, etc.

To know that there is a God is to know that you'll be fine. Yes if you believe there is a God, you know that there is a Hell. I pray I go to Heaven, because I do not want to go to hell and burn over and over.

And yes the source is vary credible, considering our Country was founded on the belief of God. And sence my mother is a vary good and smart women makes it credible.
[/quote]How do you rule out confirmation bias?[quote]

Your english is horrible, " Religion is a bad reason do do good things ", You do not know english becuase you made a mistake.

- Sorry I had to do that, everyone does it to me. Nothing against you, I still understood it, and it did not keep me from replying to the question.

The way I look at it, If you believe in God you think before you do something bad. Such as Stealing, Murdering , Commiting Suicide.
[/quote]I should not have expected this to be understood. I am trying to say that want of reward and fear of punishment are two very bad reasons to do good deeds. Good deeds should be done for their own sake, not to get into heaven, nor to avoid hell. This said, even if you ignore post-mortem reward and punishment, none of those actions is in your self interest, even stealing and murdering might help you achieve short term goals, the risk is outweighs any long term benefit. The best motivation for moral behavior is the trust and cooperation of your community.[quote]
Like of course as a Human being who makes mistakes, I have thought of Suicide many times but I believe in God so I have held myself against that. So for me to know that there is a God, is to not do bad to others or to self. To give and not Recieve.
[/quote]Do you have to appeal to another authority to feel good about giving? I know from experience that the answer is no.[quote]

Main reason why I hate Athiest's beliefs is because they are taking out God, if they believe there is No God why do they care that other's Believe in God, and why are they trying to take it out of everything.[/quote]
As I said earlier, we do not want our tax money to be used to promote religious ideas, nor do we want our children indoctrinated. We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.[/quote]

Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:[quote=AntiSleep]It is however a fact that the most fundamentalist areas of this country are the areas with the highest STD rates, and the highest rates of children born out of wedlock. It is also a fact that atheists account for a disproportionately low ratio of the united states prison population.[/quote]

Without reliable sources, and proven statistics, this claim nullifies your argument against Steamboy.

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm - atheists in prison http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html composite US demographics http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?page=article&Article_ID=10961 - divorce rate in bible belt. http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/data/brates.asp teen pregnancy rates by state- compare states within bible belt- with those outside it.

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm - atheists in prison
http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html composite US demographics
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?page=article&Article_ID=10961 - divorce rate in bible belt.
http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/data/brates.asp teen pregnancy rates by state- compare states within bible belt- with those outside it.

also, fix your damn quotes, you should repost any comments other than that last line too.

also, fix your damn quotes, you should repost any comments other than that last line too.

[quote=Kellimus] [quote=AntiSleep]We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.[/quote] Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:[/quote] I have seen and heard the religious indoctrination of children first hand. These people show photos of aborted fetuses to preschoolers, in order to solidify the future political position of the children.

Quote from Kellimus

Quote from AntiSleep

We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.

Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:

I have seen and heard the religious indoctrination of children first hand. These people show photos of aborted fetuses to preschoolers, in order to solidify the future political position of the children.

[quote=AntiSleep][quote=Kellimus] [quote=AntiSleep]We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.[/quote] Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:[/quote] I have seen and heard the religious indoctrination of children first hand. These people show photos of aborted fetuses to preschoolers, in order to solidify the future political position of the children.[/quote] And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme... And honestly, I agree with what Steamboy said. ALL atheists I have [i]ever[/i] came across, think the same way as the examples he provided. Have you ever thought that maybe you're Agnostic instead of being an Atheist?

Quote from AntiSleep

Quote from Kellimus

Quote from AntiSleep

We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.

Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:

I have seen and heard the religious indoctrination of children first hand. These people show photos of aborted fetuses to preschoolers, in order to solidify the future political position of the children.

And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme...

And honestly, I agree with what Steamboy said. ALL atheists I have ever came across, think the same way as the examples he provided.


Have you ever thought that maybe you're Agnostic instead of being an Atheist?

[QUOTE=Kellimus]And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme...[/QUOTE] Actually, he never condemned everyone that follows it, or even implied that. All he said is he doesn't want those "hard-core enthusiasts" to do what they do. Maybe you should read a little more careful. In the meantime, you have done exactly what you accused AntiSleep of just on the last page, and in fact actually did it. [QUOTE=Kellimus]Well considering that most atheists I've met (both in real life and online) are close-minded and hard-headed, in my opinion, that makes them ignorant.[/QUOTE] Omg hypocrisy! Not that I even believe what you said is true, but that is just one example of you saying something exactly like that out of a few just in your last several posts. Also, steamboy actually did [I]exactly[/I] what you were trying to correct anti for a lot worse than either of you, but you didn't mention anything about that.

Quote from Kellimus

And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme...

Actually, he never condemned everyone that follows it, or even implied that. All he said is he doesn't want those "hard-core enthusiasts" to do what they do. Maybe you should read a little more careful. In the meantime, you have done exactly what you accused AntiSleep of just on the last page, and in fact actually did it.

Quote from Kellimus

Well considering that most atheists I've met (both in real life and online) are close-minded and hard-headed, in my opinion, that makes them ignorant.

Omg hypocrisy!

Not that I even believe what you said is true, but that is just one example of you saying something exactly like that out of a few just in your last several posts. Also, steamboy actually did exactly what you were trying to correct anti for a lot worse than either of you, but you didn't mention anything about that.

[quote=Kellimus][quote=AntiSleep][quote=Kellimus] [quote=AntiSleep]We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.[/quote] Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:[/quote] I have seen and heard the religious indoctrination of children first hand. These people show photos of aborted fetuses to preschoolers, in order to solidify the future political position of the children.[/quote] And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme... And honestly, I agree with what Steamboy said. ALL atheists I have [i]ever[/i] came across, think the same way as the examples he provided. Have you ever thought that maybe you're Agnostic instead of being an Atheist?[/quote] I am an agnostic as well as an atheist. Agnostic means without knowledge, and atheist means without theistic belief. I have never met a gnostic atheist. Now, it may be that you do not condone violence for religious reasons, but because you refuse to question religious authorities, you stand on a continuum with those who do. Religious moderates give safe harbor to fundamentalist and extremist religious ideas and behavior. It is not as though you have to torture the texts to justify the fundamentalism either, that stuff is really in the bible.

Quote from Kellimus

Quote from AntiSleep

Quote from Kellimus

Quote from AntiSleep

We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.

Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:

I have seen and heard the religious indoctrination of children first hand. These people show photos of aborted fetuses to preschoolers, in order to solidify the future political position of the children.

And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme...

And honestly, I agree with what Steamboy said. ALL atheists I have ever came across, think the same way as the examples he provided.


Have you ever thought that maybe you're Agnostic instead of being an Atheist?

I am an agnostic as well as an atheist. Agnostic means without knowledge, and atheist means without theistic belief. I have never met a gnostic atheist.

Now, it may be that you do not condone violence for religious reasons, but because you refuse to question religious authorities, you stand on a continuum with those who do. Religious moderates give safe harbor to fundamentalist and extremist religious ideas and behavior. It is not as though you have to torture the texts to justify the fundamentalism either, that stuff is really in the bible.

[quote=Dapperdan][QUOTE=Kellimus]And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme...[/QUOTE] Actually, he never condemned everyone that follows it, or even implied that. All he said is he doesn't want those "hard-core enthusiasts" to do what they do. Maybe you should read a little more careful. In the meantime, you have done exactly what you accused AntiSleep of just on the last page, and in fact actually did it. [QUOTE=Kellimus]Well considering that most atheists I've met (both in real life and online) are close-minded and hard-headed, in my opinion, that makes them ignorant.[/QUOTE] Omg hypocrisy! Not that I even believe what you said is true, but that is just one example of you saying something exactly like that out of a few just in your last several posts. Also, steamboy actually did [I]exactly[/I] what you were trying to correct anti for, but you didn't mention anything about that. It seems you just enjoy arguing with AntiSleep right now. :/[/quote] And all you do Dapperdan, is take what people say, twist and construe it so it sounds like you're the smart one. Sorry, but that's not a good way of debating, thank you :) And, no I didn't. I'm not hard-headed and close-minded in this situation. I believe in god. Other people do not. I do not attack nor say that anyone is stupid for believing or not believing in a higher power (some call it God) unlike a few others in this thread. So therefore, I have done nothing of the sort, in to which you claim I have. Sorry that you failed this time, Dapperdan.

Quote from Dapperdan

Quote from Kellimus

And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme...

Actually, he never condemned everyone that follows it, or even implied that. All he said is he doesn't want those "hard-core enthusiasts" to do what they do. Maybe you should read a little more careful. In the meantime, you have done exactly what you accused AntiSleep of just on the last page, and in fact actually did it.

Quote from Kellimus

Well considering that most atheists I've met (both in real life and online) are close-minded and hard-headed, in my opinion, that makes them ignorant.

Omg hypocrisy!

Not that I even believe what you said is true, but that is just one example of you saying something exactly like that out of a few just in your last several posts. Also, steamboy actually did exactly what you were trying to correct anti for, but you didn't mention anything about that. It seems you just enjoy arguing with AntiSleep right now. :/

And all you do Dapperdan, is take what people say, twist and construe it so it sounds like you're the smart one.

Sorry, but that's not a good way of debating, thank you

And, no I didn't. I'm not hard-headed and close-minded in this situation.

I believe in god. Other people do not. I do not attack nor say that anyone is stupid for believing or not believing in a higher power (some call it God) unlike a few others in this thread.

So therefore, I have done nothing of the sort, in to which you claim I have.

Sorry that you failed this time, Dapperdan.

[quote=AntiSleep][quote=Kellimus][quote=AntiSleep][quote=Kellimus] [quote=AntiSleep]We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.[/quote] Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:[/quote] I have seen and heard the religious indoctrination of children first hand. These people show photos of aborted fetuses to preschoolers, in order to solidify the future political position of the children.[/quote] And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme... And honestly, I agree with what Steamboy said. ALL atheists I have [i]ever[/i] came across, think the same way as the examples he provided. Have you ever thought that maybe you're Agnostic instead of being an Atheist?[/quote] I am an agnostic as well as an atheist. Agnostic means without knowledge, and atheist means without theistic belief. I have never met a gnostic atheist. Now, it may be that you do not condone violence for religious reasons, but because you refuse to question religious authorities, you stand on a continuum with those who do. Religious moderates give safe harbor to fundamentalist and extremist religious ideas and behavior. It is not as though you have to torture the texts to justify the fundamentalism either, that stuff is really in the bible.[/quote] I'm sorry that I'm not a blind-sheep who follows others around like you. I don't need to question religion for the purposes that others give, I question it for my own reasons. Something that it seems like you don't.

Quote from AntiSleep

Quote from Kellimus

Quote from AntiSleep

Quote from Kellimus

Quote from AntiSleep

We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.

Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:

I have seen and heard the religious indoctrination of children first hand. These people show photos of aborted fetuses to preschoolers, in order to solidify the future political position of the children.

And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme...

And honestly, I agree with what Steamboy said. ALL atheists I have ever came across, think the same way as the examples he provided.


Have you ever thought that maybe you're Agnostic instead of being an Atheist?

I am an agnostic as well as an atheist. Agnostic means without knowledge, and atheist means without theistic belief. I have never met a gnostic atheist.

Now, it may be that you do not condone violence for religious reasons, but because you refuse to question religious authorities, you stand on a continuum with those who do. Religious moderates give safe harbor to fundamentalist and extremist religious ideas and behavior. It is not as though you have to torture the texts to justify the fundamentalism either, that stuff is really in the bible.

I'm sorry that I'm not a blind-sheep who follows others around like you. I don't need to question religion for the purposes that others give, I question it for my own reasons.


Something that it seems like you don't.

Kellimus didn't you recently accuse me of ad-hominum attacks, and then of hypocrisy? Do you feel like justifying the claim that I follow the ideas of others anytime soon?

Kellimus didn't you recently accuse me of ad-hominum attacks, and then of hypocrisy? Do you feel like justifying the claim that I follow the ideas of others anytime soon?

[QUOTE=Kellimus]And, no I didn't. I'm not hard-headed and close-minded in this situation. I believe in god. Other people do not. I do not attack nor say that anyone is stupid for believing or not believing in a higher power (some call it God) unlike a few others in this thread. So therefore, I have done nothing of the sort, in to which you claim I have. Sorry that you failed this time, Dapperdan.[/QUOTE] You didn't even address what I said. [QUOTE=Kellimus]And all you do Dapperdan, is take what people say, twist and construe it so it sounds like you're the smart one. Sorry, but that's not a good way of debating, thank you[/QUOTE] Where do I construe something into something it is not? That is [I]exactly[/I] what you did just a second ago. [QUOTE=Kellimus]And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it?[/QUOTE] He had in fact not said anything about that, but you construed it into that (how, I don't know) by some twisted logic. Right now, in your arguements against both AntiSleep and myself, all you are basically saying is "You're wrong and I cannot be". Sorry, but according to your own logic, this is a total failure in an attempt to argue. :)

Quote from Kellimus

And, no I didn't. I'm not hard-headed and close-minded in this situation.

I believe in god. Other people do not. I do not attack nor say that anyone is stupid for believing or not believing in a higher power (some call it God) unlike a few others in this thread.

So therefore, I have done nothing of the sort, in to which you claim I have.

Sorry that you failed this time, Dapperdan.

You didn't even address what I said.

Quote from Kellimus

And all you do Dapperdan, is take what people say, twist and construe it so it sounds like you're the smart one.

Sorry, but that's not a good way of debating, thank you

Where do I construe something into something it is not? That is exactly what you did just a second ago.

Quote from Kellimus

And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it?

He had in fact not said anything about that, but you construed it into that (how, I don't know) by some twisted logic. Right now, in your arguements against both AntiSleep and myself, all you are basically saying is "You're wrong and I cannot be". Sorry, but according to your own logic, this is a total failure in an attempt to argue.

[quote=Kellimus][quote=AntiSleep][quote=Kellimus][quote=AntiSleep][quote=Kellimus] [quote=AntiSleep]We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.[/quote] Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:[/quote] I have seen and heard the religious indoctrination of children first hand. These people show photos of aborted fetuses to preschoolers, in order to solidify the future political position of the children.[/quote] And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme... And honestly, I agree with what Steamboy said. ALL atheists I have [i]ever[/i] came across, think the same way as the examples he provided. Have you ever thought that maybe you're Agnostic instead of being an Atheist?[/quote] I am an agnostic as well as an atheist. Agnostic means without knowledge, and atheist means without theistic belief. I have never met a gnostic atheist. Now, it may be that you do not condone violence for religious reasons, but because you refuse to question religious authorities, you stand on a continuum with those who do. Religious moderates give safe harbor to fundamentalist and extremist religious ideas and behavior. It is not as though you have to torture the texts to justify the fundamentalism either, that stuff is really in the bible.[/quote] I'm sorry that I'm not a blind-sheep who follows others around like you. I don't need to question religion for the purposes that others give, I question it for my own reasons. Something that it seems like you don't.[/quote] I quote myself so I can explain to you (AntiSleep) what I mean: [quote=AntiSleep]Now, it may be that you do not condone violence for religious reasons, but because you refuse to question religious authorities, you stand on a continuum with those who do.[/quote] Uh, no. Just because I "refuse to question religious authorities" (can you read my mind? Damn, I wish I had that power!) doesn't mean that I 'stand on a continuum with those who do' I hate religion because in my eyes, its an easy way to start wars. Just claim you're doing a crusade in the eyes of God, and you're good to go (at least back in ancient times) I don't have to blindly follow around other atheists to hate religion, and not follow it. It comes across as that's the reason as to why you're an "atheist" because of how you said this (a rather ridiculous comment anyways): [quote=AntiSleep]Now, it may be that you do not condone violence for religious reasons, but because you refuse to question religious authorities, you stand on a continuum with those who do.[/quote] Now to anyone who can think for themselves and to those who have brains, you've just tried to attack anyone who doesn't follow atheism. With claims that because they don't follow atheism, they agree with what religion does/states. Sorry, but that's a logical fallacy. [quote=AntiSleep]Religious moderates give safe harbor to fundamentalist and extremist religious ideas and behavior. It is not as though you have to torture the texts to justify the fundamentalism either, that stuff is really in the bible[/quote] That is true, for someone who believes and follows "The Holy Bible". Which is something I do not believe in, because of many, many, MANY inconsistencies throughout history when it comes to dealing with Christianity. Anyways, the point I'm trying to get across is: Just because someone doesn't follow the same ideals/beliefs as you, doesn't mean you have the right to try to change their beliefs. EVERY atheist I've [i]ever[/i] comes across, does in fact do this. "You're stupid because you believe in God!" "You're intellectually challenged because you believe in a higher power" Atheists harm the world because they're hypocrites. Agnostics don't harm the world, because they're open-minded to everyone's beliefs.

Quote from Kellimus

Quote from AntiSleep

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We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power.

Provide me with reliable sources to the outrageous claims you've spoken of:

I have seen and heard the religious indoctrination of children first hand. These people show photos of aborted fetuses to preschoolers, in order to solidify the future political position of the children.

And so because of a few "hard-core enthusiasts", you're going to condemn everyone that follows it? That's like calling all Muslims Terrorists because a few of the followers of the religion take it to the extreme...

And honestly, I agree with what Steamboy said. ALL atheists I have ever came across, think the same way as the examples he provided.


Have you ever thought that maybe you're Agnostic instead of being an Atheist?

I am an agnostic as well as an atheist. Agnostic means without knowledge, and atheist means without theistic belief. I have never met a gnostic atheist.

Now, it may be that you do not condone violence for religious reasons, but because you refuse to question religious authorities, you stand on a continuum with those who do. Religious moderates give safe harbor to fundamentalist and extremist religious ideas and behavior. It is not as though you have to torture the texts to justify the fundamentalism either, that stuff is really in the bible.

I'm sorry that I'm not a blind-sheep who follows others around like you. I don't need to question religion for the purposes that others give, I question it for my own reasons.


Something that it seems like you don't.

I quote myself so I can explain to you (AntiSleep) what I mean:

Quote from AntiSleep

Now, it may be that you do not condone violence for religious reasons, but because you refuse to question religious authorities, you stand on a continuum with those who do.

Uh, no. Just because I "refuse to question religious authorities" (can you read my mind? Damn, I wish I had that power!) doesn't mean that I 'stand on a continuum with those who do'

I hate religion because in my eyes, its an easy way to start wars.

Just claim you're doing a crusade in the eyes of God, and you're good to go (at least back in ancient times)

I don't have to blindly follow around other atheists to hate religion, and not follow it.

It comes across as that's the reason as to why you're an "atheist" because of how you said this (a rather ridiculous comment anyways):

Quote from AntiSleep

Now, it may be that you do not condone violence for religious reasons, but because you refuse to question religious authorities, you stand on a continuum with those who do.

Now to anyone who can think for themselves and to those who have brains, you've just tried to attack anyone who doesn't follow atheism. With claims that because they don't follow atheism, they agree with what religion does/states.

Sorry, but that's a logical fallacy.

Quote from AntiSleep

Religious moderates give safe harbor to fundamentalist and extremist religious ideas and behavior. It is not as though you have to torture the texts to justify the fundamentalism either, that stuff is really in the bible

That is true, for someone who believes and follows "The Holy Bible".

Which is something I do not believe in, because of many, many, MANY inconsistencies throughout history when it comes to dealing with Christianity.

Anyways, the point I'm trying to get across is:

Just because someone doesn't follow the same ideals/beliefs as you, doesn't mean you have the right to try to change their beliefs.

EVERY atheist I've ever comes across, does in fact do this.

"You're stupid because you believe in God!"
"You're intellectually challenged because you believe in a higher power"




Atheists harm the world because they're hypocrites.
Agnostics don't harm the world, because they're open-minded to everyone's beliefs.

[quote=AntiSleep]As I said earlier, we do not want our tax money to be used to promote religious ideas, nor do we want our children indoctrinated. We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power[/quote] We? Do you have a turd in your pocket? I just find it funny how atheists speak for their group as a whole... Just like they follow each other blindly with fallacious claims such as "[i]we[/i] do not want our tax money to be used blah blah blah blah" Honestly, I think its YOU who doesn't want their tax money used for purposes such as those. Which is a very piss-poor excuse to try to force someone out of their beliefs.

Quote from AntiSleep

As I said earlier, we do not want our tax money to be used to promote religious ideas, nor do we want our children indoctrinated. We have no problem with people seeking religion only for themselves, but this is not the scope of religion. Religion(and dogma in general, the credulity of authority by appeal to authority is the underlying mechanism) has been at the root of countless wars and conflicts, especially various flavors of Christianity, Islam, and personality cults of dictators. All of these regimes indoctrinate the young by appeals to authority, in order to maintain power

We? Do you have a turd in your pocket?


I just find it funny how atheists speak for their group as a whole... Just like they follow each other blindly with fallacious claims such as "we do not want our tax money to be used blah blah blah blah"

Honestly, I think its YOU who doesn't want their tax money used for purposes such as those. Which is a very piss-poor excuse to try to force someone out of their beliefs.

I am against anyone that allows violent memes to exist. If that is you, then so be it. I never said you were stupid because you believe in god, rather that you are benighted.

I am against anyone that allows violent memes to exist. If that is you, then so be it.

I never said you were stupid because you believe in god, rather that you are benighted.

I speak in general, not for any organization.

I speak in general, not for any organization.

[quote=AntiSleep]I never said you were stupid because you believe in god, rather that you are benighted.[/quote] And that just proved mine and Steamboy's point of how Atheists are hard-headed, and close-minded. I have a different view/opinion than you. I'm "benighted" because I have a different view/opinion than you. Hence, you're close-minded, and hard-headed, and rather stupid. Stupid because you're so inane enough to claim you don't attack people's views and opinions, but you attack mine by calling me benighted. Thanks for contradicting yourself AntiSleep :)

Quote from AntiSleep

I never said you were stupid because you believe in god, rather that you are benighted.

And that just proved mine and Steamboy's point of how Atheists are hard-headed, and close-minded.

I have a different view/opinion than you.

I'm "benighted" because I have a different view/opinion than you.

Hence, you're close-minded, and hard-headed, and rather stupid. Stupid because you're so inane enough to claim you don't attack people's views and opinions, but you attack mine by calling me benighted.



Thanks for contradicting yourself AntiSleep

You are not stupid because of your religion, I know religious people who are intelligent. You are not one of them. I will try to explain, here is a general model of consciousness(without religion): [IMG]http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c278/proc_/Consciousness.png[/IMG] the 3 problem memes I identified(Christianity, islam, and dictator cults) can invade any young mind directly through the perceptual filter, by means of appeal to authority, once there it modifies the directives to spread the meme, and it subverts reason out of self preservation.

You are not stupid because of your religion, I know religious people who are intelligent. You are not one of them.

I will try to explain, here is a general model of consciousness(without religion):

the 3 problem memes I identified(Christianity, islam, and dictator cults) can invade any young mind directly through the perceptual filter, by means of appeal to authority, once there it modifies the directives to spread the meme, and it subverts reason out of self preservation.

[QUOTE]Stupid because you're so inane enough to claim you don't attack people's views and opinions, but you attack mine by calling me benighted.[/QUOTE] He NEVER said that, or implied it. I don't need to quote anything, just read something that is in every post he makes, HIS SIGNATURE. So, yeah, you're wrong, again. Just to clarify, he essentially claims that he attacks people's views and opinions, you might not have caught that, he just said he never called anyone stupid for believing in something, etc. etc. I could go on all day.

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Stupid because you're so inane enough to claim you don't attack people's views and opinions, but you attack mine by calling me benighted.

He NEVER said that, or implied it. I don't need to quote anything, just read something that is in every post he makes, HIS SIGNATURE. So, yeah, you're wrong, again. Just to clarify, he essentially claims that he attacks people's views and opinions, you might not have caught that, he just said he never called anyone stupid for believing in something, etc. etc. I could go on all day.