Almost all build orders that people know have been optimized for 1v1 melee play; "timing attacks" exploit momentary weakness in the opponent's build order, which you scout and predict. Specific attacks like the initial batch from a 2 hatch mutalisks build aim to severely damage the opponent before certain research like Stimpacks or U-238 bullets finish. If you mess with anything significant in the first ten minutes of the game, all "balance" breaks down because none of the build orders you know will apply.

Zerg players can instantly make three drones and a spawning pool and still have 150 minerals left. 6 zerglings will pop from their base in under 2 minutes (80 seconds for pool, 28 seconds for zerglings.)

Terran players are resigned to making two barracks to counter such a rapid rush. They now can only mine with two SCVs at the start of the game. Barracks take 80 seconds to make. Each marine takes 24 seconds to make. But wait!

In the time it took you to build the barracks (80 seconds), you would have had enough time to make six SCVs, and you would be supply blocked. 40 more seconds to make a supply depot...

Oh no! The zerglings have reached your base and you don't even have marines. You attempt to attack the zerglings with your SCVs but you fail horribly due to half-decent micro from the zerg. The Terran, therefore, has to pre-emptively make units and pull SCVs from the mineral line just to make buildings.

(It's pretty much the same BS with Protoss, though... You have to instantly place down cannons. 30 seconds pylon, 40 seconds forge, 50 seconds for two photon cannons, and you just barely make it before zerglings get to you, and even then you need to block the ramp with probes. Making a gateway then going zealots (30 pylon, 60 gateway, 40 zealot) is pretty much suicide.)

Meanwhile, the zerg economy booms as they start off with an initial 7 drones...

Yeah yeah I reset the balance. I was referring more to Wormer's information and about the unlimited upgrades. Since those get increasingly expensive and longer to research, my thought is that they would start becoming prohibitive before too long. It would seem to me that would only imbalance the game if a player was resource deprived for a very long time compared to another player, which shouldn't be happening if Gods are keeping them supplied...

Meh. In any case, those are out too.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 7 2010, 11:10 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.

Siege tanks: +5
Goliaths: +4
Battlecruisers: +3

Everything else: +2 or +1

'Nuff said. But at least you fixed it .

What's wrong with that, exactly? Those are already mid-late game units, aren't they?

If anything, marines and zerglings would be the real terrors at higher upgrades for attacking bases and such...

There is absolutely nothing you can do against a highly upgraded terran mech army. You have to keep in mind that armor is only +1 per upgrade; assuming you keep your armor upgrade equal to the opponent, a terran enemy would be far more dangerous than a protoss enemy. Armor will basically negate the marine/zergling damage upgrades.

This is a huge problem in many maps that advertise "UNLIMITED UPS", just ask around on Bnet. When my phantom map had unlimited ups, the phantom almost always lost if a competent terran player survived long enough to mass a mech army, and people complained about it until I took it out. Terran ultimately performs far better than other races if the game drags on.

And Defilers, Dark Archons, Reavers, Arbiters, Ultralisks, or Guardians can't counter these?

Meh.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 8 2010, 1:15 am by Tuxedo-Templar.

Defilers high tier'd
Dark Archons cost too much comparitively
Reavers < Tanks
Arbiters < Goliaths
Ultralisks high tier'd
Guardians = goliaths + range .. but higher tier'd

No one will whine as long as you keep the melee exactly the same XD

High tier'd is irrelevant as >3 upgrades would be available at about the same time. But that only really gives the zerg any sort of fighting chance via. Dark Swarm...

Zealot bombs would be a bit more effective with uber siege tanks around, though.

Irradiate
EMP
Tank > reaver
EMP
Mech > Ultralisks
Irradiate. Or any air unit.

DA's and Arbs have a fighting chance with MC and Stasis, still. Irradiate only kills gradually, so swarms still get to go off. Ultralisks + swarm + high upgrades = pwn. Guardians backed with swarm and hydras have a chance against air. Reavers + shuttles = tank bomb.

Only the protoss really seem to have the disadvantage in this matchup. Stasis seems like their only salvation, and that's expensive. Lockdown may also be a pain, too.



Also keep in mind Goliaths do 2x air damage, so armor upgrades counter by taking off 2x per upgrade. They stay at 20 damage, therefore. +2x2 - 2 = 2.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 13 2010, 9:53 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.

Ultralisks are mainly for tanking damage from marines, and the zerglings do the majority of the damage. But if the enemy has enough vessels he can just irradiate your ultras and kill a lot of lings with the splash. (Guardians + hydras + swarm is also a pretty bad combination since any melee ground unit will rip your hydra army to shreds and be safe from guardians due to swarm.)

The late game TvP really comes down to "who can cast the spell first"; arbiter caught in EMP? you lost. Vessel stasis'd before he could EMP? you won.

Goliaths do 2x air damage but each upgrade still gives it +2 per hit, so if you have 5 armor and they have 5 attack, they will still do 20+10 damage instead of 20.

Ah you're right. My math was off. My point was that's still not the same as +4 dmg. Dragoons do about that much themselves, *for example. At least against large units; most air units, for example.

Edit: Does Goliath air also do explosive damage?

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Aug 13 2010, 10:51 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.

Yes, only for their air attack. http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Goliath (Air attack: 10e (x2 attacks))

Edit: Actually this is a better reference: http://classic.battle.net/scc/gs/damage.shtml

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 13 2010, 10:35 pm by chia-tyrant.