I agree with this. I seem to remember metal influences first beginning with bands like Led Zepplin and ACDC, and then branching out from there. You can't exactly diagram things like that either, because plenty of different styles of metal started around there, blending and increasing elements from previously mentioned bands.

For example, the first wave of Black Metal starting with Venom started around the same time as Thrash began really getting itself off the ground. Sure, Venom was alot about the image, but at the time they got the basic premises for Black Metal down (The shrieks, the dirty production qaulity, the distortion and feedback on the guitars, etc). Venom got it's influence from bands like Kiss and Judas Priest, metal bands of the day, infact the ones that started the movement. Kiss and Judas Priest each got their influences from bands before them, though I don't know quite as much about them as I do about Venom.

The point is that metal bands come from a culmination of ideas. Venom could not have come about and sounded as they did without the influences they had if Kiss and Judas Priest hadn't existed. Naturally, Judas Priest and Kiss could not have existed if they hadn't gotten their influences from the bands before them and so on and so forth. Just because the fans and bands of metal and rock are different does not make metal an entirely different genre from rock. But if that's the only qaulification to be an utterly different genre, then Black Metal did not come from Metal at all, it simply made itself. Rock has all the prime influences that started metal, and without Rock, Metal would not and could not have existed. The ideas simply would not have been there.

EDIT: To disagree with Norm's edit, the thing about metal is that it evolved from rock, the early bands were rock bands WITH elements of modern day metal, not the other way around. ACDC, Kiss, Led Zepplin, etc, were all primarily rock oriented with elements that were later added to to create metal.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 17 2009, 12:44 am by BAGLES.

I... hate you....

THHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSS MUCH.

I would like to point out that Metal is drastically different from Rock, and none of the rock bands went from playing rock to playing metal. I think that most metalheads can agree that Black Sabbath was the first mainstream metal band, and If i recall correctly, they have never put out a Rock album. They have always put out Metal Albums, probably because they were totally Metal and not Rock.

Although it's true that no metal band would be the way they were now if it weren't for rock's constant influence, I would like to make the example that I always go by, which is this. Rock is Metal's older brother. Metal learned a lot from Rock because Rock had 30-40 years to learn the ropes before Metal was Born. Now The point of disagreement: I do NOT believe that Rock is Metal's Dad per say. It's arguable that both genres are Blue's kids. As in, Metal would be the younger sibling being born in the late 60's, 30-40 years after rock was Born. I think that Rock's strong 'older brother' influence on Metal causes people to have the misconception that Rock is a Parent of Metal.

Wtf, your disagreeing with BAGLES?

It's as if metal to you is grindcore or something. You've listened Led zepplin and ACDC right?

roflmao, I had a crack out of that one lol.

The definitive guide on the family of rock.

Well, yeah, Black Sabbath was the first mainstream metal band. Just because they never put out a rock album doesn't mean they did not have rock influences. For example, One Man Army and the Undead Qaurtet have never put out anything that could possibly be counted as rock, but if you listen to them, it's really easy to tell the rock influences. That's sort of an obscure example, but look up Misfit With a Machinegun (Or Saint Lucifer, or Dominator of Flesh, hell, anything) by them and you'll know what I mean.

However, I still disagree with your main point. I think that metal was the result of several bands building on what rock artists had already done. Making the vocals more harsh, increasing the tempo, etc. I've listened to more than my fair share of metal bands, and more often I think “rock” instead of “blues”, and then when I listen to rock I think “blues”. I suppose that may just be the way I hear, but that's often what it seems to be for me.

EDIT: I can't see the picture Syphon posted =(

Led Zep and ACDC are rock bands... Metal to me is everything that embodies the values and meaning of Metal. Which can be simply said as anything from Heavy Metal (Judas Priest) to Thrash Metal(Vio-lence) to Death Metal(Morbid Angel) and every sub-genre in between.

Edit: Grindcore is a mixture of Goregrind(Metal) and Hardcore(A genre of Punk) So it's about 50% metal in my eyes. I also cannot see the picture, and BAGLES, your first paragraph is exactly what I addressed in my paragraph about Rock's dominant influence over metal forming it to what it is today.

Eh, I suppose. I still don't think metal was directly derived from blues. Most early metal bands are just too extreme to come directly from blues without anything inbetween IMO. Maybe I'm just looking at the wrong ones? If you can show me some bands that instead of being built from rock were built from blues instead, I would be glad to change my viewpoint.

That's the exact controversy, unfortunately. I'm proposing that when a genre (Rock) was born from blues, it became Rock. When a genre (Metal) was born from blues decades later, it became Metal BECAUSE of Rock's influence. Had Rock not existed, Metal would have became rock when it was born. Is that a fair argument?

As a support for this: Image the band Atheist, (I hope you've heard them.) They were born from death metal, but they drew large influence from jazz. If jazz had never existed, Atheist would have become a typical Death Metal band - or perhaps drawn influence from a different genre, but because jazz did exist, Atheist became a jazz fusion death metal band.

If we apply this same thinking to the entire genre of Metal. Metal was born from blues, but it drew large influence from rock. If rock never existed, Metal would have become what Rock is now, or an unknown alternative genre, but because rock did exist, Metal became the Genre (and many sub-genres) that it is today.

So true.

Anyway, due to the transitive property, its safe to say that metal comes from classical music.

Yeah, I suppose. I'm not exactly the genre master of blues or rock, I just know that the roots of metal are in both. I still don't feel converted to your argument, I suppose the idea is just strange to me.

Completely understandable, can we at least agree that my argument is at a likely possibility of how it happened? - if anything it'd be hard to tell for sure since it's not like we have documentation of each band member's thoughts about their music during the late 60's.

Metal comes from "Heavy Metal". Heavy Metal comes from Hard Rock or "Heavy Rock". Heavy Rock obviously comes from Rock.
Metal is derived from Rock.

Whys does that feel and sound wrong... hmm... interesting ;o

I agree... I never heared about "Heavy Rock" either.

Thats now what I ment devourer. I think Three days grace is hard rock right? w/e

It just feels like Heavy metal would be a like a sub sub genre of metal. I don't think someone would start a harder rock version and call it heavy metal and then tone it down a bit and call it metal. The first thing that would come to mind in that artist head is that they went back to playing hard rock, and not JUST metal.

Metal came from Rock.

So, yeah, BAGLES and every of you who thinks so, good job.

Heavy Metal surfaced in the 70's... Metal was born in the late 60's. Heavy Metal is a sub genre of Metal. It's the same pattern as for example Death Metal or Black Metal. These are also sub genres of Metal. Metal was not born from it's sub genre, this would have been impossible since it came into existence the decade after Metal was born.

I have also never heard of "Heavy Rock", and Heavy Metal and Hard Rock are VERY different. Listen to the albums "Powerslave", "Number of the Beast", or "Painkiller" These are prime examples of Heavy metal. The sound is drastically different from hard rock: for example bands like Guns n Roses.

HAZ, i thought i taught you better than that -_-;;

Look up the metal genres listed anywhere. Heavy Metal is BUT ONE GENRE of metal.

Examples: Doom Metal, Death Metal, Thrash Metal etc. etc.

Not all Metal is "Heavy Metal"

Just like not all dance music is "Techno."