Have any of you been reading up on Relic's new RTS? I was never interested in the first DoW, but after playing Company of Heroes (and absolutely loving it), my anticipation for this game has been heightened immensely. Here's a screenshot to whet your appetites:



Don't get me wrong. I logged at least two thousand hours into StarCraft over the past ten years, but CoH really captured me (except for the online services, which are still relatively unreliable compared to Battle.net). I prefer the darker art style over the clean crispness of StarCraft II, and I really like the dynamic environments, cover system, and squad AI over StarCraft's relatively simplistic tactical experience. Lots of people find micro to be fun, and it is, but too much of it like in StarCraft doesn't appeal to me. That and build orders and everything else that I've tried to forget about the game. I prefer realism in my games, and it never made much sense to me why players should be expected to hold their units' hands at every step of the way.

Trust me on that Dawn of War isn't much of that a big difference to Starcraft, except for the fact that you can choose weapons for what your space marines wear, and damage types that make a ton of difference. But say, scouts with sniper rifles- micro that right and you reward yourself with a lot of kills. Dawn of War also has a build order according to its game specific scenario. If I also mention, the game is intensive with 'hero play'. You will be well aware of it if you played the previous DoW games. If you want to play an RTS that doesnt involve any kind of micro at all, dont play at all. At that point, its not RTS. It's Simulation.

I've always loved Dawn Of War, until they turned it into a game of RISK. I'll definitely check this out.

Because that's the fun in it

You must never have played CoH, BeDazed, from the way you are talking. CoH is much more about strategy and less about micro. Yes, there is still a fair level of micro, but a solid strategy is worth far, far more than micro ability. That's why I really like the cover/suppression system implemented in CoH - you can't run your whole army into heavy fire as is possible with StarCraft. A single machine gun unit can easily pin several riflemen squads, forcing the player with the riflemen to flank or risk taking heavy casualties. I'm not saying that micro should be removed - I'm just saying that I shouldn't need to tell my units to take cover if there are bullets zipping around them. Jerking my units off to victory isn't really my thing.

Clearly you don't know how to play the game. Unless you told the unit to hold position, they'll attack back or run away if they can't attack.

Thats like saying Starcraft has no strategy at all. Lurkers arent effective against marines and storms arent effective against small and low hp units. Thats also saying you can run Dragoons into a line of siege tanks where they'd get killed within a matter of minutes. And to my knowledge, flanking IS micro. Also Starcraft isn't like you have to tell the units to attack for them to attack anyhow, why the fuss? Does CoH automatically pull your units back if they are losing? Huh? Does CoH automatically create units if you aren't making any? Oh, you don't have to make your units move to make them reach their destination? Huh? Thats a first. You sound like a guy thats never played any kind of RTS seriously enough to know whats micro to a basic need for an RTS.

Don't be a troll. Have a single marine run around a medic to hold off a half dozen zergling might be the norm in SC, but such an act would be retarded in CoH. Why do I even bother? Anytime anyone criticizes SC at all, people like you always jump out shooting first and asking questions later if at all.


Yes, I like having all of my marines thinking themselves Rambo and shooting at any enemy in plain sight automatically. I know SC doesn't have a cover system for this to work, but I actually like having my infantry take cover during a firefight automatically. It makes them feel, I dunno, human! SC was good for the RTS genre back in the day, but I can't believe that you're arguing that no more advances have been made in the past ten years.

No, you aren't understanding his point. In Starcraft, the only cover system is high ground and the occassional tree. In CoH, you have buildings, rubble, objects that your units can utilize to shield themselves from damage (which, like real warfare, is essential), and they will intelligently make use of such an advantage if it is nearby. That'd be like the Starcraft AI moving your marine a few pixels over to ensure it is under a tree and receiving benefit from its cover, rather than standing a mere foot away like an automaton that the player must babysit and manually direct any minor move actions.

Hercanic pretty much nailed it. AI makes the battlefield feel fluid, and you don't always have perfect control over your units as they get pinned down by artillery or MG fire or are retreating.

Thats retarded.


You can.

Iam pointing out that Starcraft isnt all that heavy in micro. And you're trying to point out that RTSes don't require any kind of micro at all.
And as if you played CoH to a point that you mastered it, there are people with hands much faster than that of yours to beat you at any kind of RTS within days. And to my intimate knowledge, strategy is what made Starcraft popular in the first place. It just took a bit more skills to accomplish it.

DoW was what SC2 should have been.

I can't wait to play this SC3.

Dear BeDazed:
No, he never said anything of the sort. Your argument that followed was nothing short of a straw man.


No he isn't.


You've completely missed his point and have come across as needlessly attacking him over his personal tastes.

What kind of fucking response is that?

Means that you don't know how to play starcraft enough. Don't try to make absurd and retarded examples which dont happen.

Have you not seen any Slayer_S_Boxer matches? =oP

It's kind of a rule that you're not aloud to talk back to Dazed concerning anything pro melee wise.

COH, to me, follows the new movement of RTS games to the RPS style of play. This counters this, this counters that, this other thing counters that. Its nice, and Starcraft sorta has that too, but if you notice in Starcraft when I get a group of Marines and Medics my Zerg opponent can still out maneuver me with Hydralisks by cleverly flanking me. Likewise lurkers counter marines but clever marine micro will preserve much of your force while taking out their lurkers. And whats nice about Starcraft compared to other RTS games is the standard most basic units are usually always useful late game as well as early game either because of upgrades they receive or because of other units you get. For example same scenario with the lurkers except this time I defense matrix a single marine to take the fire of all the lurkers and run him past while the rest of the marines take them out. Its shit like that that I never see in other RTS games, its a certain amount of depth in the game that allows an incredible variety of strategy and tactical gameplay to take place. The game even today is still seeing newer strategies being used, and new makes always change things up and keep the game interesting.

In a game like CoH, DoW, C&C, etc you really don't see this sort of shit happening because unit counters are solid. By solid I mean they are so strong that its pointless continuing to use what has just been countered. Like in C&C infantry might be the first thing you can build but most players rush to vehicle tech because the first and cheapest unit from that counters anything that has two feet and it stays like that the entire game. In DoW you just need to know what your opponents infantry makeup will be. Is it infantry or heavy infantry? Heavy? Ok build anti-heavy infantry weapons and units (hell it even says it on the unit 'Anti-Heavy Infantry' - thanks Relic make it more obvious why don't you).

CoH seemed to follow the same pattern as my last two examples but I will admit I haven't played the game enough to really understand how it works. Call me out if I'm wrong but that's the impression I got from it after a couple hours of play.

Terrain in newer RTS's also plays less importance than Starcraft. I'm not saying it plays no importance, but its to a much lesser degree. Don't get me wrong holding high ground or a choke is still a strong strategy but when you have solid unit counters its just a matter of time before you break through them even just by attack moving.

Now onto Dawn of War 2. Game looks fucking badass, I'll definitely get it. Dawn of War (Soulstorm) was pretty fun when I played it and I'm sure this one will be too.

Amen

You take a look at it again and see for yourself the specific numbers.

Yeah well not unless you can beat any of my races 1 on 1.