I thought I'd bring to everyone's attention (since it seems not many know), you can use spit from the minimap.

I felt this warranted a topic of it's own to gather the attention it needs, simply because nobody seems to know this works.

Really? I didn't knew it... I thougt that people meant to use the minimap to navigate through the hatcheries!

Quote from Dungeon-Master

Really? I didn't knew it... I thougt that people meant to use the minimap to navigate through the hatcheries!

Could use the Escape button to do that but I find it's a very long reach for my hand, wastes time.

I've been using it those 2 last days and man it's a relief! I can now keep producing larvas without leaving my army to be out microed.

Quote from Dungeon-Master

I've been using it those 2 last days and man it's a relief! I can now keep producing larvas without leaving my army to be out microed.

Really, you shouldn't at all worry about micro. A-move should be vastly sufficient until you get into diamond, as only up into the diamond league does it really make more of a difference than applying that bit of focus into macro. In your skill level, whoever gets the most units the fastest will win, hence macro being so important. Also, at your skill level, apm is very limited, and as such relevant micro (being apm intensive) will severely cut into your macro quality.

At the game's current state, you'll probably need to start microing in each battle once you hit like 1000 diamond.

Quote from CecilSunkure

Quote from Dungeon-Master

I've been using it those 2 last days and man it's a relief! I can now keep producing larvas without leaving my army to be out microed.

Really, you shouldn't at all worry about micro. A-move should be vastly sufficient until you get into diamond, as only up into the diamond league does it really make more of a difference than applying that bit of focus into macro. In your skill level, whoever gets the most units the fastest will win, hence macro being so important. Also, at your skill level, apm is very limited, and as such relevant micro (being apm intensive) will severely cut into your macro quality.

At the game's current state, you'll probably need to start microing in each battle once you hit like 1000 diamond.

True. But microing battles can get you up to 1000 diamond faster. =/

Not if it cuts into your macro. Macroing better with no micro will get you into 1000 diamond faster than giving attention to micro.

Yea but it is a source of training for me, I always had around 1k mins 1k gas when I stopped micro after battles, so I was hugely behind at start, but after some weeks of play, I now remember most of the time to use my queens and hatcheries hotkeys to spawn larvas and units... So yea it is taking me more time because i lose due to being out macroed, but I am getting better at multitasking and it will pay soon... In fact, it already pays, I am getting way more wins then loses.

You'll improve faster if you focus on only macro. Trust me, I know. I guarantee that even if you focus hugely on your macro, you will still screw it up. I know you cannot have perfect macro, and thus, you have a ton of room for improvement.

Quote from Dungeon-Master

Yea but it is a source of training for me, I always had around 1k mins 1k gas when I stopped micro after battles, so I was hugely behind at start, but after some weeks of play, I now remember most of the time to use my queens and hatcheries hotkeys to spawn larvas and units... So yea it is taking me more time because i lose due to being out macroed, but I am getting better at multitasking and it will pay soon... In fact, it already pays, I am getting way more wins then loses.

Cecil is right. If you can get two bases on someone, it doesn't matter how hard they micro you in a battle, you'll just overwhelm them with pure numbers, as long as you picked a sufficient unit counter. Once you make your macro game very good, you can attempt to multi-task, but you don't always need to micro. Basically, you can either defeat your opponents with superior technology and unit choice, or, you can defeat them with lots and lots of basic units like marauders, stalkers and roaches. You also have to get used to expanding frequently and keeping tabs on your opponent, you never want to be down in bases unless you can't prevent it. I still have trouble agressively expanding, because I enjoy two-base play (which is bad).

Quote from Neki

Quote from Dungeon-Master

Yea but it is a source of training for me, I always had around 1k mins 1k gas when I stopped micro after battles, so I was hugely behind at start, but after some weeks of play, I now remember most of the time to use my queens and hatcheries hotkeys to spawn larvas and units... So yea it is taking me more time because i lose due to being out macroed, but I am getting better at multitasking and it will pay soon... In fact, it already pays, I am getting way more wins then loses.

Cecil is right. If you can get two bases on someone, it doesn't matter how hard they micro you in a battle, you'll just overwhelm them with pure numbers, as long as you picked a sufficient unit counter. Once you make your macro game very good, you can attempt to multi-task, but you don't always need to micro. Basically, you can either defeat your opponents with superior technology and unit choice, or, you can defeat them with lots and lots of basic units like marauders, stalkers and roaches. You also have to get used to expanding frequently and keeping tabs on your opponent, you never want to be down in bases unless you can't prevent it. I still have trouble agressively expanding, because I enjoy two-base play (which is bad).

Same here, I tend to use only 2 bases and expand only when the other player really is boxed in his base.

That's stupid. That's why Cecil is telling you to concentrate on macro first. If you macro, and have sufficient flow of troops- you're going to be craving, I mean craving for resources. If you play like that, any decent opponent will always box you in, always expand more, and ultimately always overwhelm you with better macro. Certainly, there's a better way around it. Just by winning a single decisive battle will earn you a chance to expand. For example, early center fight- population from 50~60. You will have your natural and your main. If you win that, you take center. You now have a freebee at taking an expansion of your choice. Most people take that chance.
There are several chances like this through out a normal play. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case and end up losing. But anyways, importance of macro. Usually, if you can macro and micro at the same time without affecting your macro, you would have at least 250 apm- which is fast. Multitasking is really high level play. Not many people can do it well.

I can agree with everything BeDazed said. Apart from some nifty tricks early in the game to defend against cheese without overextending myself economically, Macro style play is the way to go if you're just learning. I've just started heeding this advice, and haven't lost a game since (mind you it's been 3 games against equal Zerg players).

I prefer winning a game quick because my micro, than in 30 minutes because of my macro.

Blink Stalkers or Burrowing Roaches literally dominate in an early aggression push.

@Bedazed. I agree with everything, EXCEPT where you say an apm of 250 is required to sufficiently macro and micro at the same time. A number like that is probably relevant for Starcraft 1, in which you can only select 12 units at once... In Starcraft 2, all you need to do is be a little agile with your control groups, your hotkeys and practice your mouse accuracy.

And, to the respond to the topic in general - if you don't practice your micro, you'll never get better at it. And you will suffer. While I agree you should focus on your macro for platinum and beneath... if you never push early, or test your opponent you are going to suffer. In 90% of 'pro' games, you'll see some creative early push, not a rush, but within the first 5 to 8 minutes of the game you'll see something go down. See how they handle it, and practice to be like this - that's the best and easiest way to improve your skill level (in my opinion).

Like in Counterstrike. Not sure if many of you play it, but the only way to get 'pro' is to play in a 'pro' server, against other 'pros'. Sure, your score will suck like hell for a while, but over time you'll become quicker, more accurate and learn to adapt to the new environment. If you focus entirely on your macro and make it into diamond - don't expect to stay there very long.

Quote from Cardinal

I prefer winning a game quick because my micro, than in 30 minutes because of my macro.

You learn faster if you stick out the 30 minutes game with excellent macro. If you enter into a 30 minute game where you can't improve your macro, then your opponent is going to be damn skilled.

Quote from Cardinal

@Bedazed. I agree with everything, EXCEPT where you say an apm of 250 is required to sufficiently macro and micro at the same time.

I'm just guessing, but I don't know if you're an extremely talented player. You might not just realize how hard it is to be sufficient at both. I play at 130-180 apm (multiply by 1.39 for real-minute apm), and I can't even have sufficient micro every game.

Quote from Cardinal

A number like that is probably relevant for Starcraft 1, in which you can only select 12 units at once... In Starcraft 2, all you need to do is be a little agile with your control groups, your hotkeys and practice your mouse accuracy.

I think this is a misconception that a lot of people have with SC2. It is true that SC2 is easier to play, and as such decent play arises from very mediocre players (mediocre in terms of speed). This does not in any way mean that higher apm isn't rewarded equally. If you want to play a game as a total badass the entire time, you still need insane apm.

Quote from Cardinal

And, to the respond to the topic in general - if you don't practice your micro, you'll never get better at it. And you will suffer.

You will get better quicker if you focus on macro above all. Honestly, you don't need anything but attack move until you hit about 1700 diamond (currently). I know from experience, and I know this because Day9 says the exact same thing. Micro isn't hard to learn, at all. If you focus on micro every game, you aren't going to have anything to micro due to your failing macro. Macro macro macro. Focus on that and you'll improve so much faster.

Cardinal, if you'd like to get in some 1v1 practice, I'd love to: CecilSunkure.676

Here's a simple way to look at it: if you're playing to win or to improve your play, work on macro first. If you're playing for fun, do what makes you happy. Simple!

Most people have fun by winning though.

Quote from Neki

Most people have fun by winning though.

No matter how you play you're going to win ~50% of your games. You could do rediculous completely legitamite and viable spine crawler pushes every game and eventually you'd get to a point in the ladder where it only works half the time. So play how you want

Quote from Symmetry

Quote from Neki

Most people have fun by winning though.

No matter how you play you're going to win ~50% of your games. You could do rediculous spine crawler pushes every game and eventually you'd get to a point in the ladder where it works half the time. So play how you want

Woah bro. Are you implying that spine crawler pushes are ridiculous?

Ah, sorry. I was thinking of something like 4gate. Edited.